Comair/Mesaba Merged Seniority List.
02-19-2009 | 06:11 PM
#41
Gear handle manipulator
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
From: B-737 First officer
02-19-2009 | 06:27 PM
#42
Used to get weekends off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
From: BusFo
Actually, the DOT (and this website, mind you) considers Comair a major airline based on quite a few statistics. Would I consider them a major? No. And I work(ed) there.
Noone here that is actually talking common sense wants to staple Mesaba to the bottom of Comair's list. Date of Hire is not fair, neither is straight ratio.
Isn't this what people get on Mesa pilot's case about? Willing to work for peanuts just to cut to the front of the line?
Actually, I chose Comair because at the time I was hired, upgrade had dropped to about 4.5 years, which I was perfectly content with given the fact that the pay was higher (pre sham bankruptcy paycuts) and I was able to live in base and not bother with commuting. If the planets align and I get recalled to Comair, I'm looking at a 12 year upgrade... which is not cool, but I'll live with it until I can find something better.
Yourself going to Mesaba could have turned out quite ugly. You benefited (I assume) from all of the folks that struggled through the bankruptcy and waited on long upgrades as well. If you had been months earlier, or had NWA or Delta not selected Mesaba as the current "Chosen One," you'd have a longer upgrade than you currently do. Who would you have gone to then, GoJet?
I would agree with some of that. Why would it be fair to a 6 year Comair FO to find himself junior to a 1 year FO at Mesaba just because "you went to work for lower wages in order to get a quicker upgrade." If that is your feeling on the subject, I say lets go Date Of Hire. I'm the most senior furlough at Comair (at the moment) and my date of hire would put me senior to 60% of your pilot group. Is that fair? Who gives a blank, it helps me out. See what I mean?
You consider yourself a "professional" pilot, yet you still don't see anything wrong with this statement?
Actually, if I was a CEO, I'd want to keep my costs down. Why pay 2 or 3 seperate sets of ground handlers to do the same job? Consolidate them into one. Delta has.
Why would I pay 3 sets of management teams? Consolidate them into one.
Why would I pay 3 sets of pilot/FA groups? Consolidate them into one or two. Leaving Compass still leaves the chance for whipsawing, which Richard Anderson and Delta love to do.
Noone here that is actually talking common sense wants to staple Mesaba to the bottom of Comair's list. Date of Hire is not fair, neither is straight ratio.
Isn't this what people get on Mesa pilot's case about? Willing to work for peanuts just to cut to the front of the line?
Actually, I chose Comair because at the time I was hired, upgrade had dropped to about 4.5 years, which I was perfectly content with given the fact that the pay was higher (pre sham bankruptcy paycuts) and I was able to live in base and not bother with commuting. If the planets align and I get recalled to Comair, I'm looking at a 12 year upgrade... which is not cool, but I'll live with it until I can find something better.
Yourself going to Mesaba could have turned out quite ugly. You benefited (I assume) from all of the folks that struggled through the bankruptcy and waited on long upgrades as well. If you had been months earlier, or had NWA or Delta not selected Mesaba as the current "Chosen One," you'd have a longer upgrade than you currently do. Who would you have gone to then, GoJet?
I would agree with some of that. Why would it be fair to a 6 year Comair FO to find himself junior to a 1 year FO at Mesaba just because "you went to work for lower wages in order to get a quicker upgrade." If that is your feeling on the subject, I say lets go Date Of Hire. I'm the most senior furlough at Comair (at the moment) and my date of hire would put me senior to 60% of your pilot group. Is that fair? Who gives a blank, it helps me out. See what I mean?
You consider yourself a "professional" pilot, yet you still don't see anything wrong with this statement?
Actually, if I was a CEO, I'd want to keep my costs down. Why pay 2 or 3 seperate sets of ground handlers to do the same job? Consolidate them into one. Delta has.
Why would I pay 3 sets of management teams? Consolidate them into one.
Why would I pay 3 sets of pilot/FA groups? Consolidate them into one or two. Leaving Compass still leaves the chance for whipsawing, which Richard Anderson and Delta love to do.
02-19-2009 | 07:12 PM
#44
Used to get weekends off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
From: BusFo
Class was boring but sim was fun. I will keep eyes and ears out for ya if hear of any jobs. They are out there as I did get another friend a challenger job in Florida. I almost took it but had some personal factors on why i couldn't. I may have something for you however. Will get back to you by end of next week/ involves learjet.
02-20-2009 | 05:29 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,629
Likes: 15
From: blueJet
I'd like to address your reliance on "research" as it relates to who deserves what. I'll assume you started at Mesaba in the last two years, but if you didn't my point is still the same.
I apologize in advance for fighting sarcasm with sarcasm.
Either I missed the entire point of your post or you sound like you're getting a wee bit defensive about your "research" being... not so sound.
I apologize in advance for fighting sarcasm with sarcasm.
... to say that because Mesaba has a more junior pilot group means that they should automatically be placed below Comair pilots is plane wrong.
Plane wrong? Nice pun. I'm not saying a 5th year Mesaba Captain should lose his seat to an 8th year Comair FO, but I'd hope a 2nd year Mesaba FO would go below a 5th year Comair FO. There has to be some kind of balance in the wildly different seniority range.
I don't know about the rest of you people, but I did my research before I went applying for jobs.
What do you mean by "you people"?
Did your research reveal that Mesaba was going to become part of DCI and you could be furloughed by summer?
And that research showed me that even though I would get paid a few dollars more an hour at Comair, I would be looking at a longer upgrade compared to that of some other airlines. That was an important point in my decision making, because I was willing to give up some pay in order to be able to move up the ranks quicker.
Were you guaranteed an upgrade time when you made that decision? If you don't upgrade fast enough does it mean a) your research is flawed, or b) the regionals are a crap shoot?
Now presumably those of you who did their research and went to comair were OK with waiting longer for the upgrade because you were getting paid more as an FO.
I don't think anyone chose Comair for the 9-year upgrade so they could make more money. I really don't see why anyone went to Comair in the last 4 years unless they live in CVG or think having a new CEO every year would be a real hoot.
Now if you didn't to your research, i'm sorry, but these are things that should have influenced your decision of were to work.
So the guys that came to Comair in 2000 failed to do any research? How could they not predict the 2001 strike, 9/11, ACA, the war, Chitauqua, SBS crashing on Christmas, Freedom, BigSky, Pinnacle, bankruptcy, DAL/NWA merger, the economy, and the price of oil? The regional world has changed a lot in the last decade. Are you confident that your research guarantees you anything 10 years from now?
Now, if we were to staple Mesaba to the bottom of Comair, you're telling me that all the Mesaba guys should be penalized for wanting to work at a company where they knew there was a more junior work group.
I'm not saying to staple anyone, I'm saying fair is somewhere between DOH and straight ratio. It sounds like you think that Mesaba newhires still deserve 18 month upgrades simply because the 6th year Comair FOs picked the wrong horse back in 2003.
Now if you integrated a seniority list based on current positions it would be the best of both worlds, those that knew going into their job that they were going to be flying the right seat for a while...
How long is a while, because Comair has 7 and 8 year Captains back in the right seat. I guess they deserve it because they didn't do enough "research" back in 2000, right?
well you're going to be doing just that instead of being magically boosted into a captains seat at the expense of a bunch of other ppl
Did you just say a 5th-8th year Comair FO needs "magic" to get an upgrade? And it can only happen at some other pilot's expense?
Those who worked for lower wages in order to get the quicker upgrade would get to keep the quicker upgrade they earned.
Huh? Working for lower wages "earns" you an upgrade, but 8 years at Comair earns you squat?
Third. All of that being said, a Comair-Mesaba merger is impractical, and doesn't make fiscal sense.
Fiscal sense is to close the doors at Comair and let the pilots apply for new jobs at Mesaba. Doesn't make it right. Or smart.
I say we let this tread die.
Plane wrong? Nice pun. I'm not saying a 5th year Mesaba Captain should lose his seat to an 8th year Comair FO, but I'd hope a 2nd year Mesaba FO would go below a 5th year Comair FO. There has to be some kind of balance in the wildly different seniority range.
I don't know about the rest of you people, but I did my research before I went applying for jobs.
What do you mean by "you people"?
Did your research reveal that Mesaba was going to become part of DCI and you could be furloughed by summer?And that research showed me that even though I would get paid a few dollars more an hour at Comair, I would be looking at a longer upgrade compared to that of some other airlines. That was an important point in my decision making, because I was willing to give up some pay in order to be able to move up the ranks quicker.
Were you guaranteed an upgrade time when you made that decision? If you don't upgrade fast enough does it mean a) your research is flawed, or b) the regionals are a crap shoot?
Now presumably those of you who did their research and went to comair were OK with waiting longer for the upgrade because you were getting paid more as an FO.
I don't think anyone chose Comair for the 9-year upgrade so they could make more money. I really don't see why anyone went to Comair in the last 4 years unless they live in CVG or think having a new CEO every year would be a real hoot.
Now if you didn't to your research, i'm sorry, but these are things that should have influenced your decision of were to work.
So the guys that came to Comair in 2000 failed to do any research? How could they not predict the 2001 strike, 9/11, ACA, the war, Chitauqua, SBS crashing on Christmas, Freedom, BigSky, Pinnacle, bankruptcy, DAL/NWA merger, the economy, and the price of oil? The regional world has changed a lot in the last decade. Are you confident that your research guarantees you anything 10 years from now?
Now, if we were to staple Mesaba to the bottom of Comair, you're telling me that all the Mesaba guys should be penalized for wanting to work at a company where they knew there was a more junior work group.
I'm not saying to staple anyone, I'm saying fair is somewhere between DOH and straight ratio. It sounds like you think that Mesaba newhires still deserve 18 month upgrades simply because the 6th year Comair FOs picked the wrong horse back in 2003.
Now if you integrated a seniority list based on current positions it would be the best of both worlds, those that knew going into their job that they were going to be flying the right seat for a while...
How long is a while, because Comair has 7 and 8 year Captains back in the right seat. I guess they deserve it because they didn't do enough "research" back in 2000, right?
well you're going to be doing just that instead of being magically boosted into a captains seat at the expense of a bunch of other ppl
Did you just say a 5th-8th year Comair FO needs "magic" to get an upgrade? And it can only happen at some other pilot's expense?
Those who worked for lower wages in order to get the quicker upgrade would get to keep the quicker upgrade they earned.
Huh? Working for lower wages "earns" you an upgrade, but 8 years at Comair earns you squat?
Third. All of that being said, a Comair-Mesaba merger is impractical, and doesn't make fiscal sense.
Fiscal sense is to close the doors at Comair and let the pilots apply for new jobs at Mesaba. Doesn't make it right. Or smart.
I say we let this tread die.
02-20-2009 | 10:53 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,629
Likes: 15
From: blueJet
What would you expect - Comair has been flying as Delta Connection out of CVG for 24 years.
02-20-2009 | 11:02 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
From: I AM NOT A KAPTAIN, i keep the right seat, nice and toasty
Ya'll should be worried about getting mainline numbers. I would take a mainline number in an enforceable contract, and a several year furlough if I was a junior pup at Comair or Missaba.
02-23-2009 | 11:50 PM
#48
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
Not to mention if a consolidation happened Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provision is federal law. DOH is out. Fair and equitable is the term used or percent of seniority. Look at NWA/DAL and USAir/America West(which wasnt under the LPP, but an arbitrator ruled the same way). This is the dumbest debate ever.
Relevant Text of Consolidated Appropriations Act 2008
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION. (a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With
respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air
carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are
subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3
and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil
Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at
59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of
the covered air carriers; except that--
(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the
combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers,
that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding
integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the
requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement
that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving
covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected
by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered
by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the
protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-
Mohawk provisions.
(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:
(1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier
that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49,
United States Code.
(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier'
means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means
an employee who--
(A) is not a temporary employee; and
(B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the
Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
(4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction'
means--
(A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air
carriers into a single air carrier; and which
(B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
(i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as
defined in section 101 of title 11, United States
Code) of an air carrier; or
(ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of
the air carrier.
(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered
transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the
date of enactment of this Act.
(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become
effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in
effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.
02-24-2009 | 11:02 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
From: G550 Captain
Anything is possible in the airline industry, BUT I do not think DAL intends to merge Comair with Mesaba for the following reasons: Mesaba already makes a very attractive package by itself to potential buyers. XJ has an excellent track record with good training department with well established infrastructure. With the latest streamlining, ie. RHS and slashing of XJ nonpilot employees by 50%, makes XJ a very attractive buy especially with its DAL/NWA contracts.
Comair on ther hand, DAL has been unable to sell in the past. Comair is very heavy with 50 seat RJs and a core of very senior pilots. Comair is top heavy. XJ also has its share of senior pilots but not on equal standing with Comair. Over 50% of XJ pilots have less than 2 year seniority. During the bankruptcy and furloughs in 2006, many did not return to XJ. Merging Comair and Mesaba would be very complicated and would make no business sense. DAL would be better off selling XJ by itself and they may try to make Comair more attractive by reducing Comair's CRJ200 fleet even further and merge with Compass and then spin it off. Just my two cents. I am making no predictions, just plausible scenarios that DAL management might be running through their numbers.
Comair on ther hand, DAL has been unable to sell in the past. Comair is very heavy with 50 seat RJs and a core of very senior pilots. Comair is top heavy. XJ also has its share of senior pilots but not on equal standing with Comair. Over 50% of XJ pilots have less than 2 year seniority. During the bankruptcy and furloughs in 2006, many did not return to XJ. Merging Comair and Mesaba would be very complicated and would make no business sense. DAL would be better off selling XJ by itself and they may try to make Comair more attractive by reducing Comair's CRJ200 fleet even further and merge with Compass and then spin it off. Just my two cents. I am making no predictions, just plausible scenarios that DAL management might be running through their numbers.
02-24-2009 | 11:39 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,349
Likes: 0
From: Body at sea level; heart at 70,000+
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