Frontier gets another 40Mil from RAH
03-07-2009, 05:51 PM
#141
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by LodyDivots
This is exactly right. It might be cool, for a second, to your friends, that you fly a mini 737, or that you fly a jet, period, but that coolness will wear off, quick, when you tell them how much you make.
To the generation of pilots, who is willing to fly mainline aircraft, for crap wages, you may find it cool and you may think you have, "bragging rights", to your friends, and family, but they will be laughing at you, all the way to the bank, as they buy their homes, raise their families, go on vacations, and actually have a retirement to look forward to. Meanwhile, you can fly your 70+ seat, mainline jet, for regional wages, and stay in your crash-pad, eating your top ramon. You'll be cool, though, because you fly a big jet! ROFL!
To the generation of pilots, who is willing to fly mainline aircraft, for crap wages, you may find it cool and you may think you have, "bragging rights", to your friends, and family, but they will be laughing at you, all the way to the bank, as they buy their homes, raise their families, go on vacations, and actually have a retirement to look forward to. Meanwhile, you can fly your 70+ seat, mainline jet, for regional wages, and stay in your crash-pad, eating your top ramon. You'll be cool, though, because you fly a big jet! ROFL!
03-07-2009, 05:59 PM
#142
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Originally Posted by Pilotpip
First, ToiletDuck doesn't speak for a vast majority of us.
Third, a vast majority of us see right through Bedford.
If he wants this airline to grow, he's going to have to pay us accordingly.
He's just as ruthless as JO and others.
He just uses religion to make himself look better. If he were a man of his word we wouldn't have 120 still on the street while posting a profit.
Why do people think that just because the company is making/has money that they it's wrong to make profitable business decisions with it since people are furloughed? RAH isn't CAL,DAL,SWA,(insert branded airline here). RAH flies a certain amount of frames as contracted by those carriers. If DAL wants 10 planes then RAH provides them and staffs those 10 planes. RAH doesn't get to say "No we have furloughs so we want 20 instead". Not their call. The company isn't going to pull people in off the streets to simply sit around and get paid to never fly. If you want to get the furloughs back then go say a few prayers for more flying. That's what we need and that's all BB has ever tried to get. You're trying to slap his wrists for the same practices that got you your job in the first place. If you're so disgruntled move on and let a furlough have the job he'd be glad to be here.
Frontier took a dive and 17 aircraft hit the parking lot. He quickly put them back to work with two new contracts at Midwest and Mokulele. How much are you really expecting from someone in this economy? I mean seriously what are you expecting? $140+ oil and he still found business yet you want to complain. What do you have up your sleeve the rest of management doesn't??? Couple all this with the 9 US air birds leaving, the 9 United birds leaving, the 24 CRJs phasing out and you're complaining that we have 100ish on the street? Don't get me wrong I hope like hell we get them back but be honest with yourself here. We're still very luck there aren't A LOT more on the streets. In the new company update the estimation was that if we hadn't been able to find a home at Midwest for the 12 aircraft the furlough number would have been around 300. You want to dog him for his business practices but they are the exact reason you have a job at all. Where do you sit on the seniority list? Are you glad he pushed for those 12 aircraft to fly and kept roughly 200 of our guys off the street or would you rather he not?
It's not managements fault for anything in the contract. It's the fault of the pilots that voted on it. If you're so unhappy then show that with your vote for any future TA that comes out. No management's job is to pay their employees ridiculous amounts of money. It's to find the balance of productivity versus price. It's the employees fault for accepting those wages if you're looking for blame. It's also up to those employees to make it better. Dont' try and sluff that responsibility off on our management they're doing their job and so far doing it well.
I'll fight tooth and nail for the best contract we could possibly get and I even have a strike fund set aside to last me for 3 months. I'm still not upset with the company, CEO, nor current contract because I accepted all of them when I chose to work here. So did you. Life here hasn't been bad at all.
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 03-07-2009 at 06:23 PM.
03-07-2009, 06:02 PM
#143
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by The Juice
Come on man. Didn't your company just put another company out of business with predatory pricing?
Those in glass houses....
Those in glass houses....
I am very sympathetic to the Aloha employees that have lost jobs. RAHPilot05 makes light of the Midwest furloughs.
I refrain from bashing other pilot groups. RAHPilot05 refers to us as "bottom feeders" while hoovering in the silt himself.
The Dash Whisperer
Last edited by TheDashRocks; 03-07-2009 at 06:03 PM. Reason: gramer and seplling
03-07-2009, 06:11 PM
#144
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
People keep saying "You're only as good as your contract". What do you call the contract that's on the bottom?
03-07-2009, 06:51 PM
#145
Used to get weekends off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: BusFo
Posts: 581
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
I don't speak for anyone but myself. Feel free to have all the opinions you want.
What's there to see through? His job is to make the company money. He does that. Maybe you mean the vast majority understands that managements job is to be productive to its shareholders and pay its debts? Whoever said any management's duty was to it's employees? If anyone believed that we wouldn't have unions.
You didn't have any issues coming here with current pay but you think someone else would? If he wants this airline to grow he'll have to keep the operating cost low enough to make us competitive to our codeshares so when business is available he'll get it. This isn't a statement of what I'm in favor of it's strait hard-knock-life fact. A lot of big statements but you gotta think them through.
Oh please. He's nothing like JO at all. He doesn't use religion for anything. When has he gotten anything from anyone because of religion? Did you sign on the dotted line because of his religion? Did DAL or CAL send us business because he believes in God? Just because he says he prays for you and your family doesn't mean anything. Name one interaction you've ever had with him through direct or indirect means let alone one that was influenced by him being religious. Contract, pairings, business deals, etc. What has he ever used his faith as leverage on? I still can't fathom why anyone thinks that because he's religious that he's suppose to neglect his duties as a CEO. It's his job to keep us a cost efficient/competitive company and to build good business relations while at the same time making a prosperous company. Or in other words his job is to be the CEO just like every other company in existence.
Why do people think that just because the company is making/has money that they it's wrong to make profitable business decisions with it since people are furloughed? RAH isn't CAL,DAL,SWA,(insert branded airline here). RAH flies a certain amount of frames as contracted by those carriers. If DAL wants 10 planes then RAH provides them and staffs those 10 planes. RAH doesn't get to say "No we have furloughs so we want 20 instead". Not their call. The company isn't going to pull people in off the streets to simply sit around and get paid to never fly. If you want to get the furloughs back then go say a few prayers for more flying. That's what we need and that's all BB has ever tried to get. You're trying to slap his wrists for the same practices that got you your job in the first place. If you're so disgruntled move on and let a furlough have the job he'd be glad to be here.
Frontier took a dive and 17 aircraft hit the parking lot. He quickly put them back to work with two new contracts at Midwest and Mokulele. How much are you really expecting from someone in this economy? I mean seriously what are you expecting? $140+ oil and he still found business yet you want to complain. What do you have up your sleeve the rest of management doesn't??? Couple all this with the 9 US air birds leaving, the 9 United birds leaving, the 24 CRJs phasing out and you're complaining that we have 100ish on the street? Don't get me wrong I hope like hell we get them back but be honest with yourself here. We're still very luck there aren't A LOT more on the streets. In the new company update the estimation was that if we hadn't been able to find a home at Midwest for the 12 aircraft the furlough number would have been around 300. You want to dog him for his business practices but they are the exact reason you have a job at all. Where do you sit on the seniority list? Are you glad he pushed for those 12 aircraft to fly and kept roughly 200 of our guys off the street or would you rather he not?
It's not managements fault for anything in the contract. It's the fault of the pilots that voted on it. If you're so unhappy then show that with your vote for any future TA that comes out. No management's job is to pay their employees ridiculous amounts of money. It's to find the balance of productivity versus price. It's the employees fault for accepting those wages if you're looking for blame. It's also up to those employees to make it better. Dont' try and sluff that responsibility off on our management they're doing their job and so far doing it well.
I'll fight tooth and nail for the best contract we could possibly get and I even have a strike fund set aside to last me for 3 months. I'm still not upset with the company, CEO, nor current contract because I accepted all of them when I chose to work here. So did you. Life here hasn't been bad at all.
What's there to see through? His job is to make the company money. He does that. Maybe you mean the vast majority understands that managements job is to be productive to its shareholders and pay its debts? Whoever said any management's duty was to it's employees? If anyone believed that we wouldn't have unions.
You didn't have any issues coming here with current pay but you think someone else would? If he wants this airline to grow he'll have to keep the operating cost low enough to make us competitive to our codeshares so when business is available he'll get it. This isn't a statement of what I'm in favor of it's strait hard-knock-life fact. A lot of big statements but you gotta think them through.
Oh please. He's nothing like JO at all. He doesn't use religion for anything. When has he gotten anything from anyone because of religion? Did you sign on the dotted line because of his religion? Did DAL or CAL send us business because he believes in God? Just because he says he prays for you and your family doesn't mean anything. Name one interaction you've ever had with him through direct or indirect means let alone one that was influenced by him being religious. Contract, pairings, business deals, etc. What has he ever used his faith as leverage on? I still can't fathom why anyone thinks that because he's religious that he's suppose to neglect his duties as a CEO. It's his job to keep us a cost efficient/competitive company and to build good business relations while at the same time making a prosperous company. Or in other words his job is to be the CEO just like every other company in existence.
Why do people think that just because the company is making/has money that they it's wrong to make profitable business decisions with it since people are furloughed? RAH isn't CAL,DAL,SWA,(insert branded airline here). RAH flies a certain amount of frames as contracted by those carriers. If DAL wants 10 planes then RAH provides them and staffs those 10 planes. RAH doesn't get to say "No we have furloughs so we want 20 instead". Not their call. The company isn't going to pull people in off the streets to simply sit around and get paid to never fly. If you want to get the furloughs back then go say a few prayers for more flying. That's what we need and that's all BB has ever tried to get. You're trying to slap his wrists for the same practices that got you your job in the first place. If you're so disgruntled move on and let a furlough have the job he'd be glad to be here.
Frontier took a dive and 17 aircraft hit the parking lot. He quickly put them back to work with two new contracts at Midwest and Mokulele. How much are you really expecting from someone in this economy? I mean seriously what are you expecting? $140+ oil and he still found business yet you want to complain. What do you have up your sleeve the rest of management doesn't??? Couple all this with the 9 US air birds leaving, the 9 United birds leaving, the 24 CRJs phasing out and you're complaining that we have 100ish on the street? Don't get me wrong I hope like hell we get them back but be honest with yourself here. We're still very luck there aren't A LOT more on the streets. In the new company update the estimation was that if we hadn't been able to find a home at Midwest for the 12 aircraft the furlough number would have been around 300. You want to dog him for his business practices but they are the exact reason you have a job at all. Where do you sit on the seniority list? Are you glad he pushed for those 12 aircraft to fly and kept roughly 200 of our guys off the street or would you rather he not?
It's not managements fault for anything in the contract. It's the fault of the pilots that voted on it. If you're so unhappy then show that with your vote for any future TA that comes out. No management's job is to pay their employees ridiculous amounts of money. It's to find the balance of productivity versus price. It's the employees fault for accepting those wages if you're looking for blame. It's also up to those employees to make it better. Dont' try and sluff that responsibility off on our management they're doing their job and so far doing it well.
I'll fight tooth and nail for the best contract we could possibly get and I even have a strike fund set aside to last me for 3 months. I'm still not upset with the company, CEO, nor current contract because I accepted all of them when I chose to work here. So did you. Life here hasn't been bad at all.
03-07-2009, 09:14 PM
#146
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
How much should someone make flying 76 seats? Everyone keeps screaming "It should be mainline" but did anyone check and see what mainline paid it's employees to fly it? Would six figures for a 4-5yr CA be good enough? Just curious what you expect.
Captain Sully makes around $120K. Is that a bad salary? I don't think so. It is a cut from his pay, from years ago, but not a bad salary. Many people in this country, would love to make $120K; hell, many would love to make half of that. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do.
You guys tell me. How is it that I know plenty of people making less than $120K per year, and many, also, making less than the $80K-$90K, or more, per year, that First Officer Skiles is probably making, yet those people, I know, aren't having to work two jobs.
You guys tell me. What is an acceptable salary? The way many of you talk, this flying career pays about $20K per year, and never more. The way many of you talk, this career, is a career that will destin you to a life of poverty.
It is many of you, who accuse the up and coming pilots of taking these jobs, and giving management no reason to raise pay. It is many of you, here, who accuse these new pilots of flying 70+ seat airplanes, and think they are cool because they fly a 70 seat jet, or a mini 737, and bringing the profession down. It seems nobody can do anything right, in this career. You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. That is the perspective, I've gotten.
Nothing is about money to me. Nobody should go into any career simply for money. I guarantee that most people will not make what they think, even if they were to go into another career. I guarantee that most people in non flying jobs, aren't making what many here think they are. I guarantee that my friend, who makes about $80K, as a fairly new airline pilot, only just making five years in, makes more than the majority of working Americans. I'd be willing to bet that many of you here, who are RJ captains, are making a decent living.
So, I say, again, you guys tell me - seriously - what is acceptable. What would stop the pay complaints?
03-07-2009, 10:46 PM
#147
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: I am the Stig
Posts: 281
Originally Posted by LodyDivots
I don't know, you guys tell me. I have a friend who just made 5 years as a captain, for a regional, flying a 50 seat jet. He pulls in around $80K, plus or minus a few. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do. I'm not a pilot, for an airline. Is six figures the only acceptable salary? It seems many pilots believe so.
Captain Sully makes around $120K. Is that a bad salary? I don't think so. It is a cut from his pay, from years ago, but not a bad salary. Many people in this country, would love to make $120K; hell, many would love to make half of that. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do.
You guys tell me. How is it that I know plenty of people making less than $120K per year, and many, also, making less than the $80K-$90K, or more, per year, that First Officer Skiles is probably making, yet those people, I know, aren't having to work two jobs.
You guys tell me. What is an acceptable salary? The way many of you talk, this flying career pays about $20K per year, and never more. The way many of you talk, this career, is a career that will destin you to a life of poverty.
It is many of you, who accuse the up and coming pilots of taking these jobs, and giving management no reason to raise pay. It is many of you, here, who accuse these new pilots of flying 70+ seat airplanes, and think they are cool because they fly a 70 seat jet, or a mini 737, and bringing the profession down. It seems nobody can do anything right, in this career. You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. That is the perspective, I've gotten.
Nothing is about money to me. Nobody should go into any career simply for money. I guarantee that most people will not make what they think, even if they were to go into another career. I guarantee that most people in non flying jobs, aren't making what many here think they are. I guarantee that my friend, who makes about $80K, as a fairly new airline pilot, only just making five years in, makes more than the majority of working Americans. I'd be willing to bet that many of you here, who are RJ captains, are making a decent living.
So, I say, again, you guys tell me - seriously - what is acceptable. What would stop the pay complaints?
Captain Sully makes around $120K. Is that a bad salary? I don't think so. It is a cut from his pay, from years ago, but not a bad salary. Many people in this country, would love to make $120K; hell, many would love to make half of that. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do.
You guys tell me. How is it that I know plenty of people making less than $120K per year, and many, also, making less than the $80K-$90K, or more, per year, that First Officer Skiles is probably making, yet those people, I know, aren't having to work two jobs.
You guys tell me. What is an acceptable salary? The way many of you talk, this flying career pays about $20K per year, and never more. The way many of you talk, this career, is a career that will destin you to a life of poverty.
It is many of you, who accuse the up and coming pilots of taking these jobs, and giving management no reason to raise pay. It is many of you, here, who accuse these new pilots of flying 70+ seat airplanes, and think they are cool because they fly a 70 seat jet, or a mini 737, and bringing the profession down. It seems nobody can do anything right, in this career. You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. That is the perspective, I've gotten.
Nothing is about money to me. Nobody should go into any career simply for money. I guarantee that most people will not make what they think, even if they were to go into another career. I guarantee that most people in non flying jobs, aren't making what many here think they are. I guarantee that my friend, who makes about $80K, as a fairly new airline pilot, only just making five years in, makes more than the majority of working Americans. I'd be willing to bet that many of you here, who are RJ captains, are making a decent living.
So, I say, again, you guys tell me - seriously - what is acceptable. What would stop the pay complaints?
Originally Posted by LodyDivots
This is exactly right. It might be cool, for a second, to your friends, that you fly a mini 737, or that you fly a jet, period, but that coolness will wear off, quick, when you tell them how much you make.
To the generation of pilots, who is willing to fly mainline aircraft, for crap wages, you may find it cool and you may think you have, "bragging rights", to your friends, and family, but they will be laughing at you, all the way to the bank, as they buy their homes, raise their families, go on vacations, and actually have a retirement to look forward to. Meanwhile, you can fly your 70+ seat, mainline jet, for regional wages, and stay in your crash-pad, eating your top ramon. You'll be cool, though, because you fly a big jet! ROFL!
To the generation of pilots, who is willing to fly mainline aircraft, for crap wages, you may find it cool and you may think you have, "bragging rights", to your friends, and family, but they will be laughing at you, all the way to the bank, as they buy their homes, raise their families, go on vacations, and actually have a retirement to look forward to. Meanwhile, you can fly your 70+ seat, mainline jet, for regional wages, and stay in your crash-pad, eating your top ramon. You'll be cool, though, because you fly a big jet! ROFL!
03-08-2009, 04:41 AM
#148
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
People in this industry wont be happy with pay until.... "they take it back"...and even then I dont think they will be happy. when you look at the pay as leveled against the average person in this country... the pay really isnt so bad...BUT when you look at the time, effort, skill ( for some anyway ) danger, and any other verb you want that relats to flying..... Pay needs an upward adjustment. People scream the regionals need to make more... "industry leading contracts".... if this industry is waiting for the jet carriers to push INDUSTRY wages up they will be waiting along time. Mainline carriers need to raise the bar so the small jet carriers can fill in behind, thats the ONLY way this will ever happen. This industry is NOT what it once was. Complaining that its not "like the good old days" .... is worthless. Fight for reasonable wages with reasonable annual step increases. Fight for better work rules. In the end however as long as mainline contracts flying, this profession will be a two class system...it has been for DECADES.
03-08-2009, 06:07 AM
#149
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by LodyDivots
I don't know, you guys tell me. I have a friend who just made 5 years as a captain, for a regional, flying a 50 seat jet. He pulls in around $80K, plus or minus a few. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do. I'm not a pilot, for an airline. Is six figures the only acceptable salary? It seems many pilots believe so.
Captain Sully makes around $120K. Is that a bad salary? I don't think so. It is a cut from his pay, from years ago, but not a bad salary. Many people in this country, would love to make $120K; hell, many would love to make half of that. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do.
You guys tell me. How is it that I know plenty of people making less than $120K per year, and many, also, making less than the $80K-$90K, or more, per year, that First Officer Skiles is probably making, yet those people, I know, aren't having to work two jobs.
You guys tell me. What is an acceptable salary? The way many of you talk, this flying career pays about $20K per year, and never more. The way many of you talk, this career, is a career that will destin you to a life of poverty.
It is many of you, who accuse the up and coming pilots of taking these jobs, and giving management no reason to raise pay. It is many of you, here, who accuse these new pilots of flying 70+ seat airplanes, and think they are cool because they fly a 70 seat jet, or a mini 737, and bringing the profession down. It seems nobody can do anything right, in this career. You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. That is the perspective, I've gotten.
Nothing is about money to me. Nobody should go into any career simply for money. I guarantee that most people will not make what they think, even if they were to go into another career. I guarantee that most people in non flying jobs, aren't making what many here think they are. I guarantee that my friend, who makes about $80K, as a fairly new airline pilot, only just making five years in, makes more than the majority of working Americans. I'd be willing to bet that many of you here, who are RJ captains, are making a decent living.
So, I say, again, you guys tell me - seriously - what is acceptable. What would stop the pay complaints?
Captain Sully makes around $120K. Is that a bad salary? I don't think so. It is a cut from his pay, from years ago, but not a bad salary. Many people in this country, would love to make $120K; hell, many would love to make half of that. I don't think that is a bad salary, but many pilots do.
You guys tell me. How is it that I know plenty of people making less than $120K per year, and many, also, making less than the $80K-$90K, or more, per year, that First Officer Skiles is probably making, yet those people, I know, aren't having to work two jobs.
You guys tell me. What is an acceptable salary? The way many of you talk, this flying career pays about $20K per year, and never more. The way many of you talk, this career, is a career that will destin you to a life of poverty.
It is many of you, who accuse the up and coming pilots of taking these jobs, and giving management no reason to raise pay. It is many of you, here, who accuse these new pilots of flying 70+ seat airplanes, and think they are cool because they fly a 70 seat jet, or a mini 737, and bringing the profession down. It seems nobody can do anything right, in this career. You are damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. That is the perspective, I've gotten.
Nothing is about money to me. Nobody should go into any career simply for money. I guarantee that most people will not make what they think, even if they were to go into another career. I guarantee that most people in non flying jobs, aren't making what many here think they are. I guarantee that my friend, who makes about $80K, as a fairly new airline pilot, only just making five years in, makes more than the majority of working Americans. I'd be willing to bet that many of you here, who are RJ captains, are making a decent living.
So, I say, again, you guys tell me - seriously - what is acceptable. What would stop the pay complaints?
If making lots of money is your goal in your career, it will lead never lead to fulfillment.
However, while you are at a regional airline, or CFI job, or night freight, for "low pay"...whatever your current definition of low pay may be there is absolutely nothing wrong with working your hardest to improve the value of you and your fellow pilots. If your job is simply punch in, close the door, operate aircraft, punch out, go home...and means nothing more to you than a paycheck or hour building or whatever, whining about pay on APC is one inevitable outcome.
my .02
03-08-2009, 06:09 AM
#150
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by SAABaroowski
The point I am poorly trying to make is, just because some people would be happy with an airline pilot salary, does not mean we should be!!!, especially when our airline is in a financial position to fork out $40,000,000.00, you mean to tell me they can't add $10.00/hr to the payscale.............
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