HermannGraf

Yes it makes sense that pilots flying the public should be at the top of the industry but to expect that from pilots at the time of hire is asking for the impossible.

No pilot without any 121 experience can be at the top of the industry starting out on his first airline if the airline does not invest in real quality training for that pilot. Even then he does not have something that is good to have. Experience.

That comes with time and from making mistakes and learning from it.

Having an ATP from an aviation fast school program with 1500 hours of flying time included (1000+ as instructor or observer) does not prepare you for the 121 enviroment at all and it does not make you a better pilot. Neither are you better prepared if you been working as a CFI or have been gathering all the hours yourself in general aviation. It may but it may also not.

You can have an ATP outside 121/135 and be a terrible pilot with no guarantee of making a good 121 pilot.

How many of the old boys at the mayors had ATP when they took their first airline job?

My point is that if the goverment and the public wants the best pilots then they have to demand from the airlines to provide the best training to create those best pilots.

There are hundreds of aviation schools around the country and the level is different in every one of them. To know how well a pilot will be in the 121 enviroment is very hard to predict. There are some extreme cases that are easy to predict but in general it is not easy.

Also comparing barbers etc with pilots is insulting to say the least. The goverment regulates and demands different amount of hours for every type of job but those hours or jobs cannot be compared like that.
The government does not require many practical hours at all from a brain surgeon student but he performs after graduating the most complex job around.

going back to pilots and barbers................
That they need all those hours to graduate as barber (that are practice and ground hours) shows more what the goverment thinks about the quality of people that the job is for.

One pilot hour is probably worth 100 barber hours. Meaning that the barbers brain works in 100 hours of training as hard as the pilot in training works in one. Not to put the barber down but lets get real. What I mean is that you are comparing different types of people and it cannot be done like that.

The same goes if you want to compare a pilot with a brain surgeon. How many hours training do you think a brain surgeon gets? Not many at all comparing with pilots but the hours are on another level , the amount of study enorm and the people doing those hours are different than a pilot or barber.

That it takes 250 hours for CPL was not invented today. It has been developed during many many years of aviation training and approved by the FAA the last decades.

Airlines hired people with a private from the street back in time even when the equipment and everything made it much harder and much more difficult to be a 121 pilot but what they did not saved on back then was on training. They trained them well and paid them well. Again, not many of the "old boys" had ATP when they started at their first airline job. Now they make it sound like they all had.

It would be great if all had 135 experience and ATP before starting at a 121 place but there are not enough 135 places around for all airline pilots needed (when the demand is high) and it would take too long for pilots to even get to 1200 hours to get in to the 135 places. The 121 industry changes so fast that it cannot wait. That is why the time requirements changes all the time depending on how many available pilots are on the street.

There are many example of terrible mistakes made by extremly experienced pilots at huge airlines killing hundreds of people (much worse than the ones made at Colgan) in aviation accident history.....

Maybe if Colgan would have been investing much more in quality training (due to goverment demands and regulations) a pilot with so much failures would not gone trough the cracks or would have been trained to handle the situation he faced that terrible night.

The issue is not solved by ATP before 121. That demand has never existed in history, not here or any other place and has nothing to do with safety.......

When regulations was taken away the goverment gave the regionals the green light to compete and do everything as cheap as possible. Now we see the result. There was a reason behind regulations for the airline industry. To claim that it is against capitalism contradicts the fact that it was regulated back in time in a capitalist country. Why was it always regulated? Because it was needed. Some industries have to be regulated due to safety factors.

So yes, if you want quality in the air then lets demand the best trained pilots (at and by the airlines) and the best paid pilots!!

The airlines (mostly regionals) have been cutting on the quality of training and on the salaries for pilots since the goverment took away the regualtions. ATP before 121 job or hours for CPL are not the problem.

The problem is that we need the regulations back!

How much are the best barbers paid?
There are some famous making way more than pilots................

FlyJSH

Spend $200,00

Or...........

At 250 hours, the candidate continues on and gets his CFI. Then at about 270 hours he gets A JOB instructing making $20 per hour. He might augment the instructing with A JOB towing banners or traffic watch. Then sometime around 1000 hours, he starts applying to 135 carriers. After a while, he gets A JOB hauling checks or boxes making $25-35,000 the first year depending on equipment.

After 2-3 years, he has about 2000 hours and has EARNED MONEY along the way.

Maybe you should get a little better idea

flyboyshell

Thanks FlyJSH, I think I misunderstood what DeFazio meant at first, but then watched what he said again and understood. At first I was thinking he was trying to push the idea of raising the min hours required for a commercial pilot. My bad all!

DeltaPaySoon

I concur,

It SHOULD be next to impossible, or just simply impossible, to "buy" a seat. I have no problem with programs like ATP, Flight Safety, etc. training 0-Comm. in 6 months.......IF, and ONLY IF, that person has no ability to apply for a 121 job.

Much, much more experience needs to be had. Sorry to the folks that this affects, but you need to realize that going through an aviation program at a 4 year university or getting many more hours of experience after your commercial certificate is going to be the future of aviation. If the incidents over the past few years doesn't change what most of us have been begging to get for decades, then near future ones most certainly will.

SkyHigh

Calculating the true cost of an aviation career is not easy. By my estimation is takes an average of 5 or more years to reach a regional then another 5 years to reach the left seat.

The opportunity cost of comparing the income potential over the decade or so it commonly takes before you can expect to make a real living against other similar profession options is staggering.

Sometimes when evaluating the true cost of an aviation career it is best to deal in dollars and cents. It paints an ugly picture but an honest one. Though a pilot may not pay directly in cash they do pay in lost years of their lives. Had they taken a more main stream job by the time they reached the ten year point they could be living a much better standard of life.

From a purely financial perspective it is a smarter plan to buy your way in if given the option. At least then your costs are known and up front.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh

I would like to add that it takes around 2000 hours of training to make a barber and as little as 250 and 6 months to make a pilot.

Skyhigh

FlyJSH

Had you actually followed this thread, you would have known it is only 1700 hours to be a barber who uses chemicals.

Sky, Are your drinking again?

SkyHigh

In my state the requirements might be different. However my main point is still valid. It takes more training and education to become a barber then professional pilot. Why don't you address that instead of the fact that I messed a detail? Oh yea, and I don't drink.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh

There is an interesting book out called "Shop Class as Solecraft". The author has a PHD in philosophy from an ivy league school but has chosen to run his own motorcycle repair business because of the intellectual challenges that the job offers.

He discovered that fancy "knowledge work" types of jobs actually offer less mental stimulation then working with your hands. On the Colbert Report the author made a statement something like, "you can never reduce jobs like plumbing, electrician or mechanic to following a set of procedures."

As we all know aviation is all about following procedures and decision trees that others have created.

Skyhigh

flynwmn

If it comes to requiring a type and a ATP then what will the pay be like, you want the F/O to be capt qualified then as a Capt Qualified FO i want capt pay.