US Carriers Defend Pilot Pay After...
06-22-2009, 08:18 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: new guy
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by Lowlevel
Crazy talk! I left a truck driving job, where I was home every day at 4pm and was making $60K to come to a regional and make $18K. Yes, it was by choice, but since when should anyone with up to 76 lives in their hands make $18K a year? When I came to the airlines, I had 2200 hours, many of which were Part 135 cargo in the Northeast, at night. So, should I have made more than other FO's without that experience? Yes! But then, if you are a union, you work for the same wages as everyone else with the same seniority. You have to admit, $346 a week to fly a plane ($18K a year)is insane! That is a $8.65 an hour, 40 hour week job!! Can you say "Would you like fries with that?"
06-22-2009, 08:37 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: CR7
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by milky
I don't understand your logic at all. You left the other job that you claim had better quality of life and pay for a job that made less than a third of the compensation. According to the market, you deemed the worth of a first year regional pilot to be exactly what you signed on to make. You weren't tricked were you? The market works. If nobody signs on to make $18,000/year, the wages are forced to increase. If people like you leave higher paying jobs to make that pay, then the price was set correctly.
So how do you want the guy to continue his career?
You have to get Jet PIC time to get to a legacy carrier.
The legacy airlines do not see a 5000 hour FAR 135 pilot as qualified anymore. They want you to have 121 jet PIC. At least many airlines do.
The Regionals knows this and abuses the system so if you want to continue on your career to bigger equipment the only way of getting those 121 PIC hours is by signing on for those slave salaries......
Are the pilots the ones that are wrong for tryng to continue their career or is it the Regionals that are wrong in abusing the system?
At the same time that some Regionals wont pay more for pilots they have so much cash that they can buy other companies.
Capitalism is good when healthy and responsible but it can be destructive and very sick in hands of bandits.
A goverment that regulates parts of the system that has gone sick is not doing anything else than being responsible.
When the system shows it is responsible and healthy then no regulation is needed.
A dog can be a mans best friend but if it goes crazy you may have to shoot it........
Capitalism is great but if it gets sick...........how do we fix it?
maybe by regulating parts of it when needed..............
Last edited by HermannGraf; 06-22-2009 at 08:41 PM. Reason: spelling
06-23-2009, 09:12 AM
#34
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: I only fly multi-winged airplanes.
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
Cap'n T... what about the unfortunate souls who were laid off when their airlines downsized or went under.... and only regionals were hiring? In other words, a former ATA 757 captain or former Aloha 737NG captain. What should they make?
06-23-2009, 09:16 AM
#35
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: I only fly multi-winged airplanes.
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by TBucket
Actually, you are completely wrong. It would be capitalism if it were unrestricted. Thanks to the RLA, it's about as far from "what they're worth" as one can get. When you have no leverage to negotiate, you get basically what management wants to pay you. Obviously, this is not what you're "worth". This is what they want to give you. Repeal the RLA and then let's see what pilots are "worth". Negotiations would change drastically if you could go on strike the day your contract expires, rather than maybe 4-5 YEARS later. (If the government decides to let you)
Actually I am competely right...who says you have to go to the airlines??? Why not avoid that whole game and go fly 135 where pay is better? You empower them by working for them. If everyone who stop playing the game of run to an airline as fast as you can they would eventually be forced to raise pay...but there are enough morons...who run off to fly "THE JET!" ...that the airlines have a surplus. And the FAA doesnt want to regulate the standards for a 121 FO...so this is what you get.
06-23-2009, 09:22 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: I only fly multi-winged airplanes.
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by robthree
Captain T.
My cousin has just graduated from Boston University. Aerospace Engineer. Really, really smart kid. In his Sophmore summer he got an internship at one of the major firms (can't remember which one - doesn't matter). His internship paid $25 an hour, full time.
Now, as I said Nick is a really smart kid. But he was being paid more to be a gopher than first year pilots make at a Legacy, much less a regional. With NO EXPERIENCE. None.
Thirty grand is not nearly enough for a brand new first officer anywhere, on any equipment. It will not support a family, period.
I agree that at 300 hours you've got no business sitting in the right seat of an airliner. I personally think an ATP ought to be required for every 135/121 pilot.
But anyone in that seat must be properly compensated. And it is the job we are doing, not what we used to do that ought to determine our pay.
My cousin has just graduated from Boston University. Aerospace Engineer. Really, really smart kid. In his Sophmore summer he got an internship at one of the major firms (can't remember which one - doesn't matter). His internship paid $25 an hour, full time.
Now, as I said Nick is a really smart kid. But he was being paid more to be a gopher than first year pilots make at a Legacy, much less a regional. With NO EXPERIENCE. None.
Thirty grand is not nearly enough for a brand new first officer anywhere, on any equipment. It will not support a family, period.
I agree that at 300 hours you've got no business sitting in the right seat of an airliner. I personally think an ATP ought to be required for every 135/121 pilot.
But anyone in that seat must be properly compensated. And it is the job we are doing, not what we used to do that ought to determine our pay.
06-23-2009, 11:58 AM
#37
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: PIC Challenger 605
Posts: 454
Originally Posted by CaptainTeezy
Your cousin has a skill that MOST PEOPLE cant/wont apply themselves to obtain. That is why at the lowest end he makes more than a new FO. I like the idea that ATPs should be required, but they arent, so we get a surplus of pilots with RJ courses from the newest civillian top gun flight school. They are the top 3% of the bottom 10%. And the FAA allows this, the airlines accept this, and the passengers are oblivious to this.
06-23-2009, 01:40 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: CR7
Posts: 267
??
Originally Posted by CaptainTeezy
Your cousin has a skill that MOST PEOPLE cant/wont apply themselves to obtain. That is why at the lowest end he makes more than a new FO. I like the idea that ATPs should be required, but they arent, so we get a surplus of pilots with RJ courses from the newest civillian top gun flight school. They are the top 3% of the bottom 10%. And the FAA allows this, the airlines accept this, and the passengers are oblivious to this. So that is why a new FO is cheap. We as pilots have brought this on ourselves...because MOST CFIs only want to go to the regional airlines. I tell all my students CFI till they have 135/ATP mins and go fly freight. Trial by fire is the best proven test.
I know a few 121 pilots with the same degree and they had to prostitute themselves to the regionals like everyone else to get ahead.
Why do you take for granted that most regional pilots do not hold a degree?
Pilot have at least invested 50K into flying and most closer to 100k (if you did not get it paid by tax money like the military guys) and that is pretty much what a lawyer or a doctor degree can cost in some places.
Many hold pretty good degrees. (BA myself)
The new pilot is cheap because the Regional was able to make pilot unions and senior pilots give up the fight long time ago with the help of the goverment when regulations was taken away.
The Unions and senior pilots in all companies should have been responsible for defending the status of a new hired pilot. The Regionals took the advantage of that without moral respect or shame and abuses the unregulated industry while piling huge amount of cash that makes it able for them to expand or buy other companies.
Now everyone blames the new pilots that are against the wall in this mess without real options and says its their own fault for taking the low payment. What a bunch of bs.!!!
It is easy to say that when you are ahead like me and the ones that say something like that but I would like to see those if they would be starting out today.
RAH makes so much cash that they dont know what to do with it and they are spreading it allover except on the pilots.
The unions and the senior guys gave up the fight for the new pilots rights and the new pilots do not have the option or strenght to change that until they get some seniority so stop blaming the new pilots for this mess.
saying that ........"as a new pilot you do not need to go to the regionals" "you have options" is funny no.......... actually pretty sad.
So.......... there are corporate companies for all new pilots to get the JET PIC asked by most mayors? No
So..flying cargo 135 (like I did) will take you to the legacy airline eventually? No, no way
so what is left for the guys?
I'ts a different time now and the old guys and the unions screwed it all for the young ones. Just admit it and try to do some changes. Stop caring just about your senior positions for a while..............
Last edited by HermannGraf; 06-23-2009 at 01:44 PM. Reason: spelling
06-23-2009, 01:48 PM
#39
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: I only fly multi-winged airplanes.
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
What?
I know a few 121 pilots with the same degree and they had to prostitute themselves to the regionals like everyone else to get ahead.
Why do you take for granted that most regional pilots do not hold a degree?
Pilot have at least invested 50K into flying and most closer to 100k (if you did not get it paid by tax money like the military guys) and that is pretty much what a lawyer or a doctor degree can cost in some places.
Many hold pretty good degrees. (BA myself)
The new pilot is cheap because the Regional was able to make pilot unions and senior pilots give up the fight long time ago with the help of the goverment when regulations was taken away.
The Unions and senior pilots in all companies should have been responsible for defending the status of a new hired pilot. The Regionals took the advantage of that without moral respect or shame and abuses the unregulated industry while piling huge amount of cash that makes it able for them to expand or buy other companies.
Now everyone blames the new pilots that are against the wall in this mess without real options and says its their own fault for taking the low payment. What a bunch of bs.!!!
It is easy to say that when you are ahead like me and the ones that say something like that but I would like to see those if they would be starting out today.
RAH makes so much cash that they dont know what to do with it and they are spreading it allover except on the pilots.
The unions and the senior guys gave up the fight for the new pilots rights and the new pilots do not have the option or strenght to change that until they get some seniority so stop blaming the new pilots for this mess.
saying that ........"as a new pilot you do not need to go to the regionals" "you have options" is funny no.......... actually pretty sad.
So.......... there are corporate companies for all new pilots to get the JET PIC asked by most mayors? No
So..flying cargo 135 (like I did) will take you to the legacy airline eventually? No, no way
so what is left for the guys?
I'ts a different time now and the old guys and the unions screwed it all for the young ones. Just admit it and try to do some changes. Stop caring just about your senior positions for a while..............
I know a few 121 pilots with the same degree and they had to prostitute themselves to the regionals like everyone else to get ahead.
Why do you take for granted that most regional pilots do not hold a degree?
Pilot have at least invested 50K into flying and most closer to 100k (if you did not get it paid by tax money like the military guys) and that is pretty much what a lawyer or a doctor degree can cost in some places.
Many hold pretty good degrees. (BA myself)
The new pilot is cheap because the Regional was able to make pilot unions and senior pilots give up the fight long time ago with the help of the goverment when regulations was taken away.
The Unions and senior pilots in all companies should have been responsible for defending the status of a new hired pilot. The Regionals took the advantage of that without moral respect or shame and abuses the unregulated industry while piling huge amount of cash that makes it able for them to expand or buy other companies.
Now everyone blames the new pilots that are against the wall in this mess without real options and says its their own fault for taking the low payment. What a bunch of bs.!!!
It is easy to say that when you are ahead like me and the ones that say something like that but I would like to see those if they would be starting out today.
RAH makes so much cash that they dont know what to do with it and they are spreading it allover except on the pilots.
The unions and the senior guys gave up the fight for the new pilots rights and the new pilots do not have the option or strenght to change that until they get some seniority so stop blaming the new pilots for this mess.
saying that ........"as a new pilot you do not need to go to the regionals" "you have options" is funny no.......... actually pretty sad.
So.......... there are corporate companies for all new pilots to get the JET PIC asked by most mayors? No
So..flying cargo 135 (like I did) will take you to the legacy airline eventually? No, no way
so what is left for the guys?
I'ts a different time now and the old guys and the unions screwed it all for the young ones. Just admit it and try to do some changes. Stop caring just about your senior positions for a while..............
Also The legacies dont require 121 JET PIC. A lot of guys go fly freight and move on up the ladder to turbine equipment and then to corporate jets. The from their you can always go to a legacy.
The legacies, fractionals, and UPS/FEDEX all know that 121 RJ PIC does not make one superior to a guy who flys by himself in the stuff at night with limited equipment....and worked his way into a King Air or Lear jet.
06-23-2009, 02:11 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Economy Minus
Posts: 1,053
Since when does the amount of money you make equate to what your job is?
Britney Spears is loaded. I doubt she is smart enough to hook up her own stereo, much less perform surgery.
A-Rod makes more than the GDP of a lot of countries, just because he can hit a baseball.
Priests make almost nothing - but are responsible for the spiritual health of hundreds.
Soldiers sleep in foxholes and get paid almost nothing so you can have the right to whine about your low pay.
Life isn't fair. If someone told you it was, they lied. Open your eyes and look around. You wanted to be a pilot, you knew what it paid, here you are.
Britney Spears is loaded. I doubt she is smart enough to hook up her own stereo, much less perform surgery.
A-Rod makes more than the GDP of a lot of countries, just because he can hit a baseball.
Priests make almost nothing - but are responsible for the spiritual health of hundreds.
Soldiers sleep in foxholes and get paid almost nothing so you can have the right to whine about your low pay.
Life isn't fair. If someone told you it was, they lied. Open your eyes and look around. You wanted to be a pilot, you knew what it paid, here you are.
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