Need some help in a debate....
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Beech 1900D
Posts: 280
....This is not politics. Politics has no place is economics or business but unfortunately our government is very blind to that fact, more so today then ever.
I have read many books, college text or otherwise, which on bases of business and sound economic theory advise against unionization and promote free market. They do this with long and solid theories backed by simple mathematics, but as you said they are in the end “theories”....
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
All sectors of the transportation industry in the United States are covered by unions, cab drivers, bus drivers, truck drivers, pilots, delivery drivers, train operators, now why do you think that is? Could it be that although not the same, the business models are similar across the board..hmmm...imagine that? CEO's trying to maximize profit and in absence of positive margins, creating yields by attempting to take concessions from their work force. History has shown that to be the case at one point or another in all sectors of the transportation industry in the US.
As far as your reasoning behind folks like Lorenzo and J.O., well J.O. does fall under the category of pilots being our own worst enemy to a certain degree but not entirely; Lorenzo on the other hand, I suspect you're either too young to remember or do not know your history. You may want to brush up on your history.
As far as your reasoning behind folks like Lorenzo and J.O., well J.O. does fall under the category of pilots being our own worst enemy to a certain degree but not entirely; Lorenzo on the other hand, I suspect you're either too young to remember or do not know your history. You may want to brush up on your history.
As far as your reasoning behind folks like Lorenzo and J.O., well J.O. does fall under the category of pilots being our own worst enemy to a certain degree but not entirely; Lorenzo on the other hand, I suspect you're either too young to remember or do not know your history. You may want to brush up on your history.
In case you misread me, I want to clarify that I was not defending Lorenzo. In fact, I think what he did was criminal. But, the fact that pilots are more unwilling to leave this profession for another actually helps the likes of people like Lorenzo. All I'm saying is that he probably knew that and used it to his advantage.
All sectors of the transportation industry in the United States are covered by unions, cab drivers, bus drivers, truck drivers, pilots, delivery drivers, train operators, now why do you think that is?
Could it be that although not the same, the business models are similar across the board..hmmm...imagine that?
CEO's trying to maximize profit and in absence of positive margins, creating yields by attempting to take concessions from their work force.
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
Incentives: Higher quality employees (less risk of an accident), fewer bogus sick calls, less turnover and attrition, higher productivity, lower training costs, including retraining pilots who don't care about the quality of the work they do, as well as training new pilots, due to attrition, etc.
By the way, a natural product of capitalism is supply and demand. But, just because I don't want to be a victim of that fact, doesn't make me a communist, or socialist, or whatever right-wing slanted propaganda word is being recklessly and incorrectly thrown around by Fox News these days.
By the way, a natural product of capitalism is supply and demand. But, just because I don't want to be a victim of that fact, doesn't make me a communist, or socialist, or whatever right-wing slanted propaganda word is being recklessly and incorrectly thrown around by Fox News these days.
Incentives: Higher quality employees (less risk of an accident), fewer bogus sick calls, less turnover and attrition, higher productivity, lower training costs, including retraining pilots who don't care about the quality of the work they do, as well as training new pilots, due to attrition, etc.
By the way, a natural product of capitalism is supply and demand. But, just because I don't want to be a victim of that fact, doesn't make me a communist, or socialist,
However, may I humbly suggest that you may be allowing yourself to be a victim rather than capitalism forcing you to be one? I'll give you an example.
Several years ago, prior to hiring on at a major, I accepted a job at a non-union carrier rather than going to a unionized regional carrier because of supply and demand. The most a unionized regional could offer me at the time was $14,000.00 per year with an upgrade in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 years.
The job I accepted paid more than double that as an f/o and allowed me to upgrade in the jet in less than a year. The schedule was not anything to brag about and neither were the benefits, but I knew that when I signed up for the job and accepted it as it was. I also knew that the positives (pay and upgrade) outweighed the negatives (schedule and days off). I was afforded the opportunity to choose and ultimately accept that job thanks to supply and demand. Supply and demand is a pendulum - sometimes we're the windshield and sometimes we're the bug.
or whatever right-wing slanted propaganda word is being recklessly and incorrectly thrown around by Fox News these days.
#35
Ah, wasn't the general idea behind labor unions to protect those that really needed to be protected? Vis a vis, those poor, drooling uneducated masses didn't have the captiol or clout to be represented against those that sought to exploit them and use them under serf like conditions, and therefore required the benefit of an orgaization with that clout to do that for them? Now, for clarity, there is all the room in the world for representaion at every level, and payscales should be negotiated according to education, experience, skill set and, big one here, competency. $12/hr labor should not be paid $40/hr by sole virtue of having a negotiated contract, but you're not suggesting that only the top bun of the burger should enjoy the protection and QOL enhancements that orgaization can provide?
As far as my response to the OP, I was simply trying to possibly explain to him the reason that his wife is not in support of unionization.
#36
Uh, actually I remember my history quite well, thank you very much. Do you remember New York Air, Eastern, Texas International, and the old Continental?
In case you misread me, I want to clarify that I was not defending Lorenzo. In fact, I think what he did was criminal. But, the fact that pilots are more unwilling to leave this profession for another actually helps the likes of people like Lorenzo. All I'm saying is that he probably knew that and used it to his advantage.
In case you misread me, I want to clarify that I was not defending Lorenzo. In fact, I think what he did was criminal. But, the fact that pilots are more unwilling to leave this profession for another actually helps the likes of people like Lorenzo. All I'm saying is that he probably knew that and used it to his advantage.
For some is not a matter of willingness, but rather the byproduct of circumstance, if you're making 6 figures as was the case of many in those days, it was extremely hard to just walk. A strike is one thing, but leave the profession altogether is another, and for some is not entirely an option, so I really don't see it. I could see leaving a certain outfit for another if you have the means to take the cut, but certainly not leave the industry. Quite frankly this was not part of Lorenzo's strategy, he was more of an executioner, but I see you remember your history now.
Not necessarily. I know several nurses who do much better in terms of pay, benefits, and time off than a lot of friends who are regional captains - and part of the analysis is the fact that they complain less than my captain friends. Anyways, hospitals are out to make a profit as well, and nurses are typically in high demand and non-union. Typically, because there are a few exceptions.
Of course they are, that is their job. And the job of our unions is to try to minimize or prevent those concessions. You can keep the higher wages, but when your competitor is paying 50% less because that is what the labor force accepts, it won't be long before your company is out of business - all other things being equal.
In essence I believe we're trying to address the same issues from different angles, but I do appreciate your point of view.
Bond
Last edited by Bond; 07-01-2009 at 06:22 PM.
#37
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Beech 1900D
Posts: 280
I just meant that fair and equitable compensation leads to those things, not necessarily unionism. Fair and equitable compensation can be given, or taken by force (by union)......or we can abolish unionism and wait for supply and demand to work it's magic, while our careers crumble before our eyes, and they start importing Chinese and Indian pilots to do our jobs for us. Dramatic, yes, but it's been done in other industries.
#38
Did you read what I wrote earlier? This thread had not addressed the original posters thoughts one bit! This discussion is more than just about union vs. non union. I think the original poster is asking about crossing the line! Am I the only one who read the second part of his question that way?
#39
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Beech 1900D
Posts: 280
Did you read what I wrote earlier? This thread had not addressed the original posters thoughts one bit! This discussion is more than just about union vs. non union. I think the original poster is asking about crossing the line! Am I the only one who read the second part of his question that way?
#40
No worries Chap. But I disagree, to some extent. Just so we are clear, I'll repost the original portion of the question so we can recall the subject:
I agree that crossing the line would be an abomination to his peers and a cause this man to suffer harsh career consequences in the long term, but does he understand what he is asking? Why haven’t we heard back from him? He did after all, start this thread.
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AZFlyer
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11-22-2008 02:57 AM