elfouquer

Sorry, I haven't been on here in about a day.... this thread has really blown up in a short period of time. To answer you question sandlapper, yes, my wife really wanted to know if I could keep working. She does not understand the consequences of scabbing. I tried to explain to her the repercussions, and she said "well that is just stupid that people would treat you like that because you need to work and pay the bills." The whole reason I started this thread to help gather evidence in support of my claim that without the union things would be much worse than they already are. Thanks to everyone for the great responses, and especially for keeping it a very professional discussion.

mooney

elf I sent u a PM but I might have accidentally deleted it. did you get it?

Killer51883

tell her that with out a union the company would force you to work 6 days in a row, have one 24 hour period off, then go back to work for another 6 days. The union is the only thing that lets her see you.

IlliniPilot99

Probably couldn't have said it better...

All in all I am not for Unions but there are certain things that they really do help on...Work rules for one BUT I believe they mostly bring down productivity. (although the airlines is a pretty different industry then most, so its hard to tell)

Small story and pretty specific example: In high school I was a shift manager for a banquet hall that mostly did weddings. On my day off I get a call from one of the servers saying that they can't find a certain table cloth, I told them to keep looking they have to be there! but they said they don't have to according to the union contract. I came in and it took me 2 min to find them. Although this is an extremely specific example the principle is the same, WE GOT MORE WORK DONE WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE THE UNION CREW ON SHIFT but the UNION crew worked less, was the least trained and got paid more but had 10X more complaints about them. THUS the banquet hall doesn't deal with them anymore.

my .02

RJSAviator76

Unions are a crutch. Plain and simple...

Haiving worked in a union shop for 8 years, I'm glad to be done with unions.

1900luxuryliner

I've never seen a significant difference in job productivity between the union and non-union jobs I've had, if it involves performing things within one's job description. If you are talking about being forced to do things outside of your job description, then yes, I guess the union people don't do that as well. Are you interested in cleaning the aircraft, scrubbing out puke stains, pushing wheel chairs through the terminal, unloading and loading all the bags, etc.? I'm not a "team player" (another word for being bent over), and I don't want to do these things. I want to do my own job, as laid out in my job description, do it well, and go home. Almost every union coworker I've ever had was motivated to do their job well. Compensation isn't the only motivation for one doing one's job well. People who use this as an anti-union argument, fail to recognize other motivating factors for doing one's job well. They also fail to realize that there are many, many non-union positions that have compensation setups which have nothing to do with job performance. My motivating factors for doing my job well are: A. Peer pressure- I don't want to get hassled or put-down by the people around me; B. Fear of receiving an FAA violation; C. Guilt- I feel guilty when I do my job poorly; D. Fear of repercussions from the CP; E. The feeling of accomplishment I get when I do my job well; F. Experience- I know that if I perform my job well now, it will help me perform future jobs at a higher level; G. Pride- I get a sense of pride from being effective in my job, and being a productive member of society; someone who makes a difference. Also, people use the argument that union workers cut into profits by 10%-15% more than non-union workers. This is because, on average, union workers are paid 10%-15% more!!! So, what is the net effect of this. Those who are the "trickle-down" type would say that this cuts into company profits, and has a negative effect on the economy. I don't believe in the "trickle-down" effect. We just had 8 years of that, and look where we ended up. I believe if you strengthen your average worker, and provide better compensation, the average worker will have more discretionary income to purchase the products and services a company provides. So, direct, measurable profits may decrease, because of higher compensation; but, because people are provided with better compensation, as a whole, more will be able to purchase products and services a company produces. Profit per product/ service performed decreases, but volume increases, with a zero net-effect. The money is shifted to the middle, instead of held at the top. Your average American is in the middle.

Deez340

She sounds pretty smart to me! Most unions are bad and bad for business. ALPA, however, is a necessary evil for us in the realm of safety.

The second part of your question is unrelated to the first. Our opinion of the merit and utility of unions is immaterial when the question of crossing a picket line arises. It's a matter of personal integrity. If you're a member you don't cross picket lines..... period. That would breaking your word and sometimes that's all you have.

BoilerUP

Its difficult to reason with people who don't know ANYTHING about the aviation industry in general or the airline industry specifically.

Have your wife read "Hard Landing", then if she can stand it have her read "Flying The Line, Vol. 2".

Then see if she asks you the same questions...

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Well, that alone is a great argument FOR having a union...

I don’t care who you are, if you move to a different airline you shouldn’t be getting ahead of the line just because of where you worked before…

Those who say “experience” and not seniority should control equipment awards, upgrades, etc. don’t realize that in reality it’s not about experience but about kissing your supervisors’ butts that helps you moving up in a company without a seniority system…

RJSAviator76

Do you not see how that is bringing down your wages and value as an airline pilot? For example, what's better for you, a 40% paycut, or 80% paycut if you have to start over? The management can port their "skills" and rape and pillage various airlines, and leave you holding a bag because you're restricted by "seniority" and NOTHING ELSE matters to you. Because of that mentality... you are a number, you are a liability, you're a union monkey... Here's another reason - union pilots forget it's about people/cargo, etc.

I'm one of those who says that "EXPERIENCE" and not seniority should control many aspects - pay being one of the most important ones. If you are a 2000 hour RJ pilot... I'm sorry, but if Sully comes to your airline, THE CUSTOMER, be it passenger or cargo or VIP, deserves the best qualified pilot being in charge. Do you think you serve customer needs the best with a seniority system that's built entirely around the date of hire? I don't.

Here's another one - personal experience. Several years flying Boeings, regional captain before that.... my airline goes under. Should I fly for 20k again? I'm sorry... I value my professional worth a little more than that, and as a result, I get paid appropriately for my experience, not for my date of hire. I didn't and don't have to kiss anyone's butt. I negotiated my contract, and I take pride in being a PROFESSIONAL and getting paid as one.

As a union pilot, how can you demand to be treated like a professional when you're just a number whose worth is determined not by experience or some other measurement, but only by date of hire? In other words... why should anyone pay you or treat you like a professional when you, yourself, don't treat or regard yourself or your peers as professionals in a true sense?