Mesabah

Why doesn't the union raise first year FO pay to a livable wage? This is a union negotiated rate, management does not set pay rates, the unions do. Pay is not a result of supply and demand in this industry, it is negotiated by the respective pilot groups. $20K a year is because pilots at your company believe that is all you are worth, not management.

The union is a business just like the airline, it will seek to raise the overall pay of its members to increase its own revenue. It does not care if they are making $20K as long as someone is making $200K. This is the problem with unions, it does not allow new hires to negotiate their own pay. If a pilot wants to work in this industry he has to accept the low pay, under the guise of paying ones dues. The problem with this is that management will focus all its attention on making pilots work for the low salaries the unions have created. Pilots should be able to negotiate their own rates. Why can't ALPA be a non-union professional society, it would make way more money that way....

hemaybedid

To clarify my opinion. I feel that the labor groups which have been discussed already exist on false pretenses being that our government restricts trade with other countries that can supply the same products made by their unskilled labor groups for far lower prices. These far lower prices would benefit each and every American. If fare trade were allowed, which is blocked by lobbying by their unions, our unskilled labor groups would be freed from their artificially inflated incomes to receive higher skills and education. With these new skills and education these workers would be able to grow our economy in areas that the U.S. is in a prime position to lead the world economy and bring in money from other world economies. You see I don't believe any person is superior to another. I simply believe that these unions have been a detrement to their represented laborers and more importantly to every American citizen.

"Why can't ALPA be a non-union professional society, it would make way more money that way...." -sorry Mesabah couldn't get it to quote like normal.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit. It would seem to me that ALPA has done a lot more for the profession in terms of safety and standardization than anything else. If we took them out of pay negotiation and decided how much they were worth to us on an individual basis I think we might get a lot more value out of them i.e. AOPA. Just a thought.

LeeFXDWG

Look, I have many issues with both ALPA NATL and UAL. BTW, I was a volunteer for 6 of my years at UAL before taking a powder for other horizons.

Having said that, get her a copy of Flying The Line I and II. Then, read the varios primers on the RLA. That is why they need to exist.

Lee

LeeFXDWG

In answer to your question, the answer lies in the much needed paradigm shift that has to occur in ALPA NATL and throughout the industry.

The pay your dues upfront mentallity has to change given a time when A plans are all but extinct, and even given the storied history of the industry, the growing fact most airlines could go bye bye if things don't improve.

So, you have pay precedence based on years of past protcol. Despie the fact things have changed, if you are at the top of the seniority ladder are you going to step up and voluntarily take another loss in a lesser pay raise to improve new hire pay? Especially if you've endured 6 years of pay on average 60% less than you were making (UAL) after seat bumps, etc., and after running thru an ill designed ESOP where you took a 25% paycut buying what became worthless stock for 6 years......

I do not ascribe to that position personally, just wanted to play devils advocate.

In todays age, it will take leadership from the senior folks at airlines and.ALPA NATL to realize that to truly preserve the profession you will have to have a paradigm shift in this day to attract both the right folks into the cockpit and realize it is now career earnings versus FAE that will bear the fruit in any retirement.

As one who volunteered to leave UAL, I will tell you it won't happen until the senior crop of folks retire and those folks that lived thru worse times on furlough after 911 and todays furloughs gain power.

Then again, they could also say "stop your crying, I was furloughed twice from UAL, shut up and color."

Until there is a "vision" on how to mold the compensation issue for today from ALPA, there will be no change. Every time they endorse a substandard contract, they put another nail in the coffin of the profession.

Off the soap box.

Lee

ZDub

Clear as mud. It's your contention that the labor groups in the US that produce goods that in turn are a part of the GDP of this nation exist on "false pretences"? Further, you're sold on the idea that we should turn over the production of goods to third world countries where they can produce goods for a dollar a day in sweat shops? And the upside is we keep grwoing thier economies? Isn't that pretty much what we do now? I defy you to walk into Home Depot and pick out any 10 items at random. 9 out of 10, if not all 10 are manufactured overseas. And please, defend the notion that workers need to be "freed" from thier incomes.....I'm still clinging to the belief that you're joking.

1900luxuryliner

Undercutting the middle class is not an effective way to grow the economy. They are the backbone of the economy. Management, in search of short term profits, has been in a constant search for ways to undercut their labor force. This includes outsourcing. The problem is, when this is done on a large scale, the very people who purchase the products and services a company produces are sent into an economic downward spiral, and can't purchase these products and services. This only weakens the economy in the long-term, even though it may be good for a short-term boost. What says that more skilled jobs will be available, if unskilled jobs are continually eliminated? Even if a company ships all their unskilled labor overseas, it doesn't mean the number of skilled jobs will increase within that same company, and especially not by the same number that were eliminated. It just means more working-class Americans will be on the street, and not able to make any contribution to the economy. The American working class has been an essential part of our economy since the very beginnings of our country. I know many, many people who have had their jobs eliminated by outsourcing. Believe it or not, every single person has been forced into a worse job, because of outsourcing! It didn't force them to get more education, or improve their situation. It only forced them into a situation of desperation, where they had to take a job that was lower on the totem pole, in order to pay bills and feed their family. How can they afford to re-educate themselves when they are working some crap job, barely paying bills, and paying off student loans for the education that was geared toward the job that just got outsourced out from under them?

wheresmyplane

Back in the day (yes, I just said back in the day) Pan Am was the airline to work for. So was United at one time. Nobody hired then could have guessed that they would go the way they have. I understand your point, but as I said before, the pilot group should not have to pay the price for an airline's mismanagement. Do you think Frank Lorenzo's living off of Ramen Noodles? Now what about the pilots he affected? They all got to apply at the bottom of the list at other carriers, if they got on anywhere. Again - not the pilot's fault.

As for the USSR's NSL: I'm pretty sure the circumstances are different in the USSA. This wouldn't be a government mandated list, but a list to protect the hard work and sacrifice of pilots across the country. I only want to have to live like this once, what about you?

No harsh words intended, just my assesment.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Have you found your plane yet?

For the sake of the argument – please tell me how this list would work?

For example at what point would one become a member? First commuter job? What if he/she flies crop dusters or tows banners; would they be eligible to join? What about the military pilots? Would they get credit for their military years? Would part 135 and 91 pilots be able to join?

If an employer has a choice to hire someone with let's say combined 15 years of National List seniority from his/her previous jobs why wouldn't he/she hire someone straight out of flight school instead? It's all about economics, isn't it?

I do see some of your points but overall a National Seniority List has an odor of communism lingering over it and I feel that it's a very bad idea... So go ahead and convince me how it'd work in today's environment...

tomgoodman

First-year pay is definitely too low, but I'm afraid that it would be even lower if each applicant individually bid for a job. Why wouldn't management just hire whichever legally qualified pilot offered to work for the least money? Desperation might lead some to bid a dollar an hour just to get a foot in the door. If some day there's a shortage of qualified applicants, things might be different, but now is is not a good time to "go it alone" on pay negotiations.

LeftWing

Sometimes, people can be out of touch with reality because they're being too academic. In your case, you're not even an academic. Your views are remarkably inconsistent with the fundamentals of economics, history and ultimately, reality. And yes, I agree with the others. Your views are quite elitist.