Need some help in a debate....
07-05-2009 | 06:28 AM
#61
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From: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
[quote=hemaybedid;637963]In a free market economy labor unions hinder the growth and strength of the economy.
Really? Was the recent economic collapse caused by bloated union wages or the rampant greed and lack of integrity of the investor class?
When a labor union negotiates 50 to 80 thousand dollar wages for unskilled and only basically educated workers it is bad for all of us...
How so? It kills me that it is so easy to argue that a group of workers is overpaid. Where is the outrage over exorbitant CEO salaries and bonuses? Why is money in the hands of the wealthy better for the economy than decent wages for workers? The most powerful engine driving an economy is a strong, growing middle class with a decent amount of discretionary income. Some of this money will be used to buy stuff, fueling economic expansion. Some of this money will be saved, reducing the national debt.
Our economy was strongest in the 50's and early 60's. Blue collar workers could afford homes and college for the kids. The middle class and the economy were booming. Union membership was at its highest.
Really? Was the recent economic collapse caused by bloated union wages or the rampant greed and lack of integrity of the investor class?
When a labor union negotiates 50 to 80 thousand dollar wages for unskilled and only basically educated workers it is bad for all of us...
How so? It kills me that it is so easy to argue that a group of workers is overpaid. Where is the outrage over exorbitant CEO salaries and bonuses? Why is money in the hands of the wealthy better for the economy than decent wages for workers? The most powerful engine driving an economy is a strong, growing middle class with a decent amount of discretionary income. Some of this money will be used to buy stuff, fueling economic expansion. Some of this money will be saved, reducing the national debt.
Our economy was strongest in the 50's and early 60's. Blue collar workers could afford homes and college for the kids. The middle class and the economy were booming. Union membership was at its highest.
07-05-2009 | 06:58 AM
#62
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From: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
...JetBlue. A non union carrier, that seeks to only hire the best employee they can find... and has just proven through dramatic and industry leading raises that unions do very little for pilots that do their job.
JB pilots, and those at other airlines benefit from working at one of the few non-union employers in an unionized industry. Without the presence of unions at the other carriers, everyone would be paying less and providing less time off.
If JB has established a culture where they treat employees with respect and integrity, fantastic. SWA did the same thing and over time became a heavily unionized carrier. SWA has been able to forge partnerships with its unions and maintain its positive culture. Does the latest contract rejection signal a shift? Will JB remain forever non-union? Time will tell.
Now, if you find yourself a screw-up, being late all the time, calling in sick all the time, breaking company rules, filing more than your share of ASAP's to CYA... then you would benefit greatly from a union.
JB pilots, and those at other airlines benefit from working at one of the few non-union employers in an unionized industry. Without the presence of unions at the other carriers, everyone would be paying less and providing less time off.
If JB has established a culture where they treat employees with respect and integrity, fantastic. SWA did the same thing and over time became a heavily unionized carrier. SWA has been able to forge partnerships with its unions and maintain its positive culture. Does the latest contract rejection signal a shift? Will JB remain forever non-union? Time will tell.
Now, if you find yourself a screw-up, being late all the time, calling in sick all the time, breaking company rules, filing more than your share of ASAP's to CYA... then you would benefit greatly from a union.
Last edited by TheDashRocks; 07-05-2009 at 12:46 PM. Reason: speling
07-05-2009 | 07:08 AM
#63
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From: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
She sounds pretty smart to me! Most unions are bad and bad for business. ALPA, however, is a necessary evil for us in the realm of safety.
Typical pilot point of view. "Unions suck. Companies should not be forced into hand outs like pensions and health benefits because it makes me pay more for things....But wait! I am not talking about me and my job!"
Our opinion of the merit and utility of unions is immaterial when the question of crossing a picket line arises. It's a matter of personal integrity. If you're a member you don't cross picket lines..... period. That would breaking your word and sometimes that's all you have.
Typical pilot point of view. "Unions suck. Companies should not be forced into hand outs like pensions and health benefits because it makes me pay more for things....But wait! I am not talking about me and my job!"
Our opinion of the merit and utility of unions is immaterial when the question of crossing a picket line arises. It's a matter of personal integrity. If you're a member you don't cross picket lines..... period. That would breaking your word and sometimes that's all you have.
Last edited by TheDashRocks; 07-05-2009 at 12:47 PM.
07-05-2009 | 07:20 AM
#64
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From: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
[quote=Lab Rat;638277]
Because of Sicilian business "consultants" who take an interest in workers rights?
I suppose that it is inevitable that someone will bring up mob ties to a few unions as a way to discredit unionism. False News cannot resist using the term "Union Boss" frequently to keep this image fresh in the minds of its loyal viewers.
Mobsters have formed corporations and other conventional business structures to disguise or enhance their activities. Why do we never hear the term "Corporate Don" or "Company Capo".
Mobsters have bribed and compromised law enforcement officials. Why do we not hear terms like, "Precinct Boss of Bosses"? They have bribed politicians, but we do not hear terms like, "Godfather of the Legislature".
Mobsters have tarnished many institutions. Unions can be corrupt, like any organization made up of weak and venal humans. This does not overwrite the need for unions or the good that they have accomplished.
Because of Sicilian business "consultants" who take an interest in workers rights?
I suppose that it is inevitable that someone will bring up mob ties to a few unions as a way to discredit unionism. False News cannot resist using the term "Union Boss" frequently to keep this image fresh in the minds of its loyal viewers.
Mobsters have formed corporations and other conventional business structures to disguise or enhance their activities. Why do we never hear the term "Corporate Don" or "Company Capo".
Mobsters have bribed and compromised law enforcement officials. Why do we not hear terms like, "Precinct Boss of Bosses"? They have bribed politicians, but we do not hear terms like, "Godfather of the Legislature".
Mobsters have tarnished many institutions. Unions can be corrupt, like any organization made up of weak and venal humans. This does not overwrite the need for unions or the good that they have accomplished.
Last edited by TheDashRocks; 07-05-2009 at 07:32 AM. Reason: seplling
07-05-2009 | 08:10 AM
#65
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From: CRJ 200 Furloughed FO
Hey,my flight department just closed.Your boss hired me to be your boss,since I've been at this longer than you (more experience,types,etc.)-you have any problem with that ? Oh,and I make way more than you. You're cool with that,right ? I AM "entitled" to it,after all.
07-05-2009 | 02:19 PM
#66
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Dash - there were many factors involved, corporate greed being one of them...
The biggest culprit though was having a so called "conservative" president spending money like a "socialist" (i.e. Carter)... That combined with political correctness created by ACORN troops that forced businesses to lend money to credit unworthy individuals simply because of their minority status... The Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac scheme devised by Barney Frank wannabies was the beginning of the entire “defraud the government” pyramid schemes…
One thing I like about our current leader is that at least he does what he said he’d do; he said he'd attempt to let the government be in charge of as much as possible of our economy and that’s exactly what he’s doing… (
- huge sarcasm light on) The previous president was against that yet he did just about the same...
07-05-2009 | 02:32 PM
#67
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Correct me if I'm wrong but a national seniority list doesn't mean a government run seniority list.... Just a way of ranking pilots so that when the airline you've been at for 20 years goes under you don't have to start at "Bob's Regional" for peanuts. From what I hear from a UK friend they already have a system where you are compensated based on your time in the industry over there. Yes, there would be people unhappy with this at first, but what about years from now? Seems like it would solve a lot of problems in the longrun, even if it steps on some toes now. Can't make everybody happy. Thoughts?
P.S. Even in a lot of trades you can at least enter a new job at a higher level of pay based on whether you're an apprentice/journeyman, whatever.
...
Well if we're both pilots, if your flight dept. closed and you came to the company I work for, you would most likely be a pilot right? You wouldn't get hired right into a chief pilot job, you'd be hired as a coworker. That's not my boss, aside from the usual Capt/FO relationship. If its a matter of you coming into the company I work for with a higher seniority # than me (and the benefits that go with a higher #), then I would need enough foresight to know that if something happened at my airline, I would benefit from the system too. I would come into a new company at a level that meets my qualifications. And yes, you are entitled to be compensated - monetarily and otherwise - for what you're worth. You don't lose value just because the people running your airline flew it into the ground (reference Eastern/Braniff). Also, we would all be one pilot group, not many pilot groups that can whipsaw each other. Whipsaw would become impossible. It would do away with the divide and conquer mentality we tend to see from management. We would only have an issue with pilots willing to fly for poor pay and work rules at carriers not represented on the national list. At that point, it's really not our problem.
P.S. Even in a lot of trades you can at least enter a new job at a higher level of pay based on whether you're an apprentice/journeyman, whatever.
...
Well if we're both pilots, if your flight dept. closed and you came to the company I work for, you would most likely be a pilot right? You wouldn't get hired right into a chief pilot job, you'd be hired as a coworker. That's not my boss, aside from the usual Capt/FO relationship. If its a matter of you coming into the company I work for with a higher seniority # than me (and the benefits that go with a higher #), then I would need enough foresight to know that if something happened at my airline, I would benefit from the system too. I would come into a new company at a level that meets my qualifications. And yes, you are entitled to be compensated - monetarily and otherwise - for what you're worth. You don't lose value just because the people running your airline flew it into the ground (reference Eastern/Braniff). Also, we would all be one pilot group, not many pilot groups that can whipsaw each other. Whipsaw would become impossible. It would do away with the divide and conquer mentality we tend to see from management. We would only have an issue with pilots willing to fly for poor pay and work rules at carriers not represented on the national list. At that point, it's really not our problem.
but you're correct, a National Seniority list does not have to be government run... However, it does not matter because the effect would be the same... We all have choices and one of those choices is to pick an employer we want to work for... If 10 years down the road your choice turns out to be the wrong choice no one but you should be responsible for making that choice...
A National Seniority list would put the blame for your mistake on all of us and would make us pay for your mistake in the form of longer upgrades, worst schedules, etc, etc...
Not that long ago there was actually a National Seniority list in another country and no matter which airplane you flew once you were hired you had a 'countrywide' seniority number... The country of course was the Soviet Union and the airline was Aeroflot... Of course, to fly outside the country you also had to be a vetted Communist Party member to prevent defections... Heck, maybe soon we'll be heading in that direction too?
07-05-2009 | 10:09 PM
#68
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From: B737CA
Wow... is it any wonder why the airline pilot profession in the US has died? Look at this thread... we're so obsessed about date-of-hire and damn everything else.
And frankwasright says:
Not necessarily entitled, but if you can negotiate it, and command it... and then put your money where your mouth is... more power to you.
At my company, you'd also be a fellow coworker and you'd be paid based on which type of airplane you're flying. If you can negotiate higher pay than me... all the better for me - it gives me ammo to have a better shot at getting a raise.
How about taking into equation what THE BOSS or the CLIENTS or the CUSTOMERS want?
Why should we care about something like THAT?!?!? It's all about me....
And frankwasright says:
Hey,my flight department just closed.Your boss hired me to be your boss,since I've been at this longer than you (more experience,types,etc.)-you have any problem with that ? Oh,and I make way more than you. You're cool with that,right ? I AM "entitled" to it,after all.
At my company, you'd also be a fellow coworker and you'd be paid based on which type of airplane you're flying. If you can negotiate higher pay than me... all the better for me - it gives me ammo to have a better shot at getting a raise.
How about taking into equation what THE BOSS or the CLIENTS or the CUSTOMERS want?
Why should we care about something like THAT?!?!? It's all about me....
07-05-2009 | 11:49 PM
#70
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From: Leftof longitudinal
Wow... is it any wonder why the airline pilot profession in the US has died? Look at this thread... we're so obsessed about date-of-hire and damn everything else.
And frankwasright says:
Not necessarily entitled, but if you can negotiate it, and command it... and then put your money where your mouth is... more power to you.
At my company, you'd also be a fellow coworker and you'd be paid based on which type of airplane you're flying. If you can negotiate higher pay than me... all the better for me - it gives me ammo to have a better shot at getting a raise.
How about taking into equation what THE BOSS or the CLIENTS or the CUSTOMERS want?
Why should we care about something like THAT?!?!? It's all about me....
And frankwasright says:
Not necessarily entitled, but if you can negotiate it, and command it... and then put your money where your mouth is... more power to you.
At my company, you'd also be a fellow coworker and you'd be paid based on which type of airplane you're flying. If you can negotiate higher pay than me... all the better for me - it gives me ammo to have a better shot at getting a raise.
How about taking into equation what THE BOSS or the CLIENTS or the CUSTOMERS want?
Why should we care about something like THAT?!?!? It's all about me....
Glad your small outfit works for you and money and safety is of no concern. My company it is a challenge every day. Union crews climb in with non union crews who succumb to most every pressure when their career is on the line. Union keeps my job so I can take care of the customers and deliver their stuff like they really want.
I see a union as much to protect me from a person who would fly unsafe airplanes and become a management pet and thus a Capt, etc ahead of the safety minded pilot. Been there too. All this doesn't mean I don't understand the business end and limitations of unions. However, the OP should simply ask his wife, "Does my safety and job stabilty matter to you?" If she answers yes, then at his current company, a union is probably the better answer. At yours, not so much.
BTW, what if the other pilot is your last post was willing to work for half of your current price? Leverage it is, and not for you.
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