Proposed ATP/1500 Minimums for 121 Carriers
07-31-2009 | 08:20 AM
#281
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,164
Likes: 803
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Maybe, but it would not be the end of RJ's, they would just move to mainline if there is no longer a cost advantage to keeping them separate. But remember, it's not just the dollar cost of the RJ operators, it's the whipsaw advantage...majors would REALLY hate to give that up.
07-31-2009 | 08:29 AM
#282
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: BEECH 1900 PIC
It sounds like wonderful experience - but if you made it required to go through that step on your way to an airline seat; would there actually be enough opportunities for pilots? I think P135 experience would be wonderful but there has to be other avenues available that provide such experience. Again - when I finally got all of my ratings and started to look for a job (and I didn't want to instruct at the time) I never consider that going straight to a regional was even an option; and maybe it wasn't back in the mid-late 80s.
USMCFLYR
USMCFLYR
07-31-2009 | 01:51 PM
#283
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,107
Likes: 103
Originally Posted by CaptainTeezy 
It will be a huge test to CFI in a C172 for 1500 hours. A test of skill and will.
Quoted for gospel...
Guys did it this way since the dawn of time. Kids these days...sheesh...
I HARDLY flew my tail off CFIing. Took some time off to go back to school, and once I went back to the CFI gig, found myself doing stagecheck pilot stuff, where I flew less than your average bear.
It STILL only took me 3 years to go from wet-CFI to commuter gig (which, BTW, required ATP mins), and that was in the middle of a recession. I learned a METRIC ton of information in that time, including how to run an aviation operation filled with recalcitrant, irritating, stubborn people (AKA pilots), evaluate students, how to get a new syllabus approved from scratch in a 141 op, deal with the FAA on a regular, professional basis, as well as countless other "skill sets".
So spare us all the "woe is me, I have to fly a new 172 with G1000" malarky. No one except your fellow millenial whiners wants to hear it. Man up and get it done.
Nu
It will be a huge test to CFI in a C172 for 1500 hours. A test of skill and will.
Guys did it this way since the dawn of time. Kids these days...sheesh...
I HARDLY flew my tail off CFIing. Took some time off to go back to school, and once I went back to the CFI gig, found myself doing stagecheck pilot stuff, where I flew less than your average bear.
It STILL only took me 3 years to go from wet-CFI to commuter gig (which, BTW, required ATP mins), and that was in the middle of a recession. I learned a METRIC ton of information in that time, including how to run an aviation operation filled with recalcitrant, irritating, stubborn people (AKA pilots), evaluate students, how to get a new syllabus approved from scratch in a 141 op, deal with the FAA on a regular, professional basis, as well as countless other "skill sets".
So spare us all the "woe is me, I have to fly a new 172 with G1000" malarky. No one except your fellow millenial whiners wants to hear it. Man up and get it done.
Nu
07-31-2009 | 02:18 PM
#284
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Learning to land in a crosswind is learning to fly, like you said, in a petri dish.
The 121 environment is not a petri dish. We can't just reset the simulator on the Colgan crash. haha, red screen, now what did we learn from that? This is the real world, not a petri dish.
I'm not knocking military training at all, but its training. Just like a new doctor, he's got all the training, but he needs the experience before he's the chief of whatever. (sorry, don't watch enough ER type shows)
The 121 environment is not a petri dish. We can't just reset the simulator on the Colgan crash. haha, red screen, now what did we learn from that? This is the real world, not a petri dish.
I'm not knocking military training at all, but its training. Just like a new doctor, he's got all the training, but he needs the experience before he's the chief of whatever. (sorry, don't watch enough ER type shows)
I have been reading your posts and I went and registered just to respond to you. I see all the points you are trying to make, some valid, some not.
While I don't disagree with you on all things, one thing I do disagree with you on is that Experience is learned (earned) instead of sitting in the right seat "observing" and "having input" on decisions....I cant remember who the other poster was, but the guy who you have been talking to quite a bit.....but his point is spot on. Until YOU are the one responsible in making decisions, you are still under the umbrella of your Instructor, flight school, Captain...etc etc.
So in other words, you know in the back of your mind that if you make a "decision" that is not correct, you are going to be overruled. That is a safety net that one has.
That being said, I completely disagree with Pilots being hired at 200, 300, 400, even 500 hrs! (Sad that I had to say 'even 500 hrs').
The amount of experience and decision making you gain in 1500 hours of flight instructing, flying freight, etc etc.....is beyond the amount of COMMAND experience you gain as sitting in the right seat of an RJ or 121 Turboprop.
Before I get rocks thrown at me, i'm not saying sitting in the right seat is invaluable, all Im saying is that those guys should not be there.
Is 1500 the magic number? NO. But it's a start and you will know that atleast the guy/gal made some decisions as opposed to coming straight out of flight school with no real world experience.
I agree 100% that life experience matters as well and it sounds like you had some.
A little of my background, I was hired at SkyWest with 1600 hours and about 200 Multi in 2004 and I was the LEAST experienced. I have been very lucky and since then moved on to a Major. Am I saying I am better than the 200 hour wonder???? Absolutely not! What I am saying is a little real world experience goes a long way.
07-31-2009 | 02:29 PM
#285
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Wow, registering just to respond to me? I'm nobody 
, but welcome!
However, I really fail to see how your opinion is any different than mine. I may be reading your post wrong or may have written something unclearly in my previous posts, but it was my point that "Until YOU are the one responsible in making decisions, you are still under the umbrella of your Instructor, flight school, Captain..etc etc.
I think that the training environment, when used correctly, can be very helpful in grooming a pilot. However, experience is just that, experience. Although we can all learn from other people's experiences, we need experiences of our own to draw upon to make better and better decisions.
, but welcome!However, I really fail to see how your opinion is any different than mine. I may be reading your post wrong or may have written something unclearly in my previous posts, but it was my point that "Until YOU are the one responsible in making decisions, you are still under the umbrella of your Instructor, flight school, Captain..etc etc.
I think that the training environment, when used correctly, can be very helpful in grooming a pilot. However, experience is just that, experience. Although we can all learn from other people's experiences, we need experiences of our own to draw upon to make better and better decisions.
07-31-2009 | 02:42 PM
#287
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Wow, registering just to respond to me? I'm nobody , but welcome!
However, I really fail to see how your opinion is any different than mine. I may be reading your post wrong or may have written something unclearly in my previous posts, but it was my point that "Until YOU are the one responsible in making decisions, you are still under the umbrella of your Instructor, flight school, Captain..etc etc.
I think that the training environment, when used correctly, can be very helpful in grooming a pilot. However, experience is just that, experience. Although we can all learn from other people's experiences, we need experiences of our own to draw upon to make better and better decisions.
, but welcome!However, I really fail to see how your opinion is any different than mine. I may be reading your post wrong or may have written something unclearly in my previous posts, but it was my point that "Until YOU are the one responsible in making decisions, you are still under the umbrella of your Instructor, flight school, Captain..etc etc.
I think that the training environment, when used correctly, can be very helpful in grooming a pilot. However, experience is just that, experience. Although we can all learn from other people's experiences, we need experiences of our own to draw upon to make better and better decisions.
250:
LOL.....so sorry man.....That post was intended for trop...the other side of the argument. I agree 100% with everything you have said on here. My bad dude
07-31-2009 | 02:46 PM
#288
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Right, I understand that they aren't 200 hour wonders anymore, however I still consider them that because of their lack of experience. I was hired with a little over 1000 TT and 250 Multi and then furloughed. But in a weird way I am glad I was furloughed because I was able to come back and instruct and gain many new experiences that I would not have had, like a near catastrophic engine failure and being able to do my Masters. It's those experiences that these low time pilots have never experienced which therefore makes them more dangerous. I know and am friends with several of the "200 hour wonderboys" but I would never trust them to fly my wife, 2 children, and I around knowing how much experience they lack. The rule needs to be written so that those that lack the needed experience to fly 25 - 75+ human beings around are forced to gain that experience. The only way that can be done is by flying as the PIC where they are the ones that make the desicions.
I understand your frustrations and I would feel the same way if I were in your shoes. However I would never trade the experiences I have had as a CFI for a quick airline job (and trust me if you knew me you would know how BAD and how long (since I was 5) I've wanted to fly for the airlines
). More experience brings more safety and I would rather be safe than dead along with 50 other people.
By the way I highly recommend the CFI route! I have learned so much as a Flight Instructor and I can't tell you how rewarding it feels to know that you have done everything you can to teach a student how to fly an airplane and then see them do it on their own. Then I've heard as you look back after you airline career is over, seeing all you did to pay your dues and ultimately progress to that 777 Captain slot is a reward that can not be measured!!! Again I highly recommend the CFI route! Good Luck and Take Care in all you do! Cheers!
I understand your frustrations and I would feel the same way if I were in your shoes. However I would never trade the experiences I have had as a CFI for a quick airline job (and trust me if you knew me you would know how BAD and how long (since I was 5) I've wanted to fly for the airlines
). More experience brings more safety and I would rather be safe than dead along with 50 other people. By the way I highly recommend the CFI route! I have learned so much as a Flight Instructor and I can't tell you how rewarding it feels to know that you have done everything you can to teach a student how to fly an airplane and then see them do it on their own. Then I've heard as you look back after you airline career is over, seeing all you did to pay your dues and ultimately progress to that 777 Captain slot is a reward that can not be measured!!! Again I highly recommend the CFI route! Good Luck and Take Care in all you do! Cheers!
Great post Ben! I agree 100% with everything you said.
07-31-2009 | 03:27 PM
#289
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,168
Likes: 0
From: Reclined
