Proposed ATP/1500 Minimums for 121 Carriers
07-29-2009 | 07:40 AM
#61
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From: none ya...
No I was just saying that no matter how many people scream for change, in the end they only want change if it doesnt directly affect them, thats all
07-29-2009 | 07:43 AM
#62
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Ok and I don't disagree with you, but as an example I have flown with many captains ( me as FP ) that when faced with any important decisions, have always expected my input, in the process, and sometimes they have simply listened and said sounds good ( that allows me to gain decision making skills) by talking it out. You will never convince me that any flight crew where the Captain treats his FO as a "CAPT in training", and any FO that holds himself to that standard, is not valuable experiance. And it sounds an aweful lot like the mentoring that people say there needs to be more of....agreed?
During the wet commercial boom it was amazing how much cockpit conversation from the left seat revolved around how much they hated flying with the 200 hr wonders. Not only were they getting no input, they were babysitting these guys. Yes, you will learn A LOT from sitting right seat by watching the decisions the captain makes, but "practicing decisions" is what you do from day 1 and it's a lot easier than making decisions when you're the PIC.
07-29-2009 | 07:43 AM
#63
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I couldn't help but notice in their proposed changes there was no mention of pilots getting paid more than someone working full time at taco-bell. At the very least we should be getting mandatory quesadeas for lets say 6hrs of duty.
Also, maybe they could draft some new standards for car drivers too. They seem to be crashing as much as ever these days.
And maybe they could just make a big database for every profession out there where anyone who's failed a test ever for their related job can't get hired because even if they did go and pass the test they're still unsafe...
Also, maybe they could draft some new standards for car drivers too. They seem to be crashing as much as ever these days.
And maybe they could just make a big database for every profession out there where anyone who's failed a test ever for their related job can't get hired because even if they did go and pass the test they're still unsafe...
07-29-2009 | 07:43 AM
#64
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From: Treading Water
Do I have to be the first to again bring up the point that both pilots had well more than ATP minimums on the accident flight...? I fail to see how setting a higher barrier to entry will solve anything...
I guess you could CFI for a while...of course, flying checks doesn't really exist anymore...and no one really sight sees...ASA discouraged applicants from banner towing or doing traffic watch...
It's the job of an airline to better screen applicants, not the US House of Representatives to start playing expert. They're better off doing an inquiry into another major league sport. I'm thinking lacrosse. Maybe rugby.
I guess you could CFI for a while...of course, flying checks doesn't really exist anymore...and no one really sight sees...ASA discouraged applicants from banner towing or doing traffic watch...
It's the job of an airline to better screen applicants, not the US House of Representatives to start playing expert. They're better off doing an inquiry into another major league sport. I'm thinking lacrosse. Maybe rugby.
07-29-2009 | 07:44 AM
#65
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From: none ya...
This is the way it should be done! But the ability to make those good decisions (under the guidance from the PIC) comes from experience. In our profession there aren't too many ways to evaluate decision making skills. By being experienced enough to be an asset to PIC as opposed to the PIC being a flight instructor is when a pilot becomes part of the crew.
As a previous APD, LCA, IP, and FC I had the privelege to evaluate and fly with both highly experienced and low time pilots. As mentioned above just because someone has the TT number does not make them a good pilot nor does being low time make them a poor pilot. What flight time does is allow an individual to understand our ATC system, and learn to make decision without putting passengers in jeopardy.
As a previous APD, LCA, IP, and FC I had the privelege to evaluate and fly with both highly experienced and low time pilots. As mentioned above just because someone has the TT number does not make them a good pilot nor does being low time make them a poor pilot. What flight time does is allow an individual to understand our ATC system, and learn to make decision without putting passengers in jeopardy.
07-29-2009 | 07:45 AM
#66
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And I hate to say it, but the really senior guys would say do it, ax em, raise pay so we can get quality people, unfortunately I am willing to bet the only pay they want raised is at the top of the scale, I bet 1st or 2nd year pay would stay the same, across the boards while senior top scale pay would climb. I think if they (senior pilots) could get the dividing line (1500, 2500, whatever) raised, they now have an excuse to say hey look how experianced I am, I have a suspition that ALPA is behind this for the monetary reasons not the safety.....I am afraid this is politically motivated. If this goes through I would hope I'm wrong on this......I so want to be wrong on this
07-29-2009 | 07:46 AM
#67
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From: e190
There may be a pilot shortage as a result, however, how is the pay going to go up if the union keeps voting contracts that sells out the junior pilots. That's been the number one problem in this industry. Managers mismanage and only have x amount of dollars to pay out, the union decides how that x amount is divided up. Will mainline guys give up some pay to increase 1st year regional pay to attract higher qualified candidates?
For one thing it will create a level playing field for regionals looking at candidates. Places that fed off of and took advantage of the low timers because no one else was hiring at 300TT will have to change their tune. When hiring does pick up i think all regionals will be at the same hour requirement and the only other way to get applicants will be to pay and treat them better. It is sad that people had to die to get a common sense solution proposed. We all knew that hiring low time pilots was a bad idea.
07-29-2009 | 07:47 AM
#68
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Real world decision making through pilot experience is 1000x more valuable than "practice" where you can't get hurt.
07-29-2009 | 07:49 AM
#69
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For one thing it will create a level playing field for regionals looking at candidates. Places that fed off of and took advantage of the low timers because no one else was hiring at 300TT will have to change their tune. When hiring does pick up i think all regionals will be at the same hour requirement and the only other way to get applicants will be to pay and treat them better. It is sad that people had to die to get a common sense solution proposed. We all knew that hiring low time pilots was a bad idea.
07-29-2009 | 07:51 AM
#70
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From: Stage Left
I think I worded it incorrectly before because you got all over me about university flying vs. non-university. That wasn't my point (not your fault). My point was that, regardless of where we put them, the FAA needs to create a 121 training program before the best of the best even gets to the airline. Not just some random PTS that can be subjective at best and pass / fail being dependent on how many boats the DE needs to pay for that month.
