I still say that none of this bodes well for pilots at the regional level. Anyone with more than 5 years of seniority would have a lot to lose in if this plan were to come to fruition. Obviously, the majority of us would want to be at major because that is where the pay, benefits, etc...are superior to what we have at a regional.
There are other ways around this if the justification is safety and standardization, however this costs money...LOTS of money from a training/flight standards perspective. I don't believe that this proposal is under the auspices of trying to achieve a true "single-level of safety" that is a tenet of both ALPA and also government (FAA policy). At least this is what both organizations like to say to the press and flying public. Anyone that truly believes that is naive at best and stupid at worst. "single-level of safety" is a myth.
What this all about is the reality facing the piloting profession in the United States and where most of the flying has been heading, the "regional" (this moniker is also obsolete given they fly mainline routes now). Now that "Open Skies" has become law, we face the very real possibility of cabotage or the so-called "6th freedom" under the Bermuda II agreement (I think that is correct) that defines what a flag carrier can and cannot do.
After all is said and done...2012 age 65 retirement spike flattens, what is going to be left is a whole lot LESS mainline jobs. So, cabotage, open-skies, reduction of capacity, reduction of jobs, etc...Is putting pressure on ALPA to re-trench and cater to the pilots that pay the most dues and butter their bread. I support ALPA and am an ALPA member, but I am learning more and more that irregardless of what propoganda comes out of national. ALPA is geared toward the legacies. They have a lot of work to do to convince many of us in the dregs of aviation otherwise. They want all the protections, all the security of maintaining their position. As we simply called it in the military, "a rice bowl issue"...

 

Exactly. $37 an hour for 99 seats........and it's still all Mainlines fault.

 

This is a management victory. It is not directly the fault of mainline pilots, but indirectly it is the result of scope relaxations.

There are two groups of airline pilots in the country...

- The "traditional" track: This includes mainline, as well as regional pilots who aspire to bigger things. They both want growth at the higher end of the profession (mainline)...they are in favor of mainline scope.

- The "Lifer" track: These are regional pilots who are not going anywhere, for whatever reason. A few are merely substandard products, but many are simply trapped by circumstance, timing, and the decline of the industry. They have a COMPLETELY different outlook...the ONLY way they are going to get (significantly) more pay and/or better QOL is through the acquisition of larger airplanes. They will do this at the expense of other regionals and mainline, even if they do catastrophic damage for the sake of a few small gains for themselves. What do they have to lose? Since they are sidelined from the "traditional" career track, they don't feel the need to "do the right thing" or "stand up for the profession" since it will not help them at all...and might even cost them their jobs at the peak of their "career".

You don't have to like them, but you can't really blame them given their position.

Regional pilot group leadership tends to consist of these guys, so even if the majority of regional pilots don't want cheap 100 seat payscales, the proposals put forth for vote will likely be generated by guys who do want large airplanes.

What's the solution? I don't know. The only thing I can think of that might bring those lifer guys onboard would be for Cal-nited to say offer seniority numbers to every single UAX pilot as they take back all RJ scope. Even that might not be enough...20+ years regional CA's get paid better and have better QOL than UA/CO new hires.

 

"What's the solution? I don't know. The only thing I can think of that might bring those lifer guys onboard would be for Cal-nited to say offer seniority numbers to every single UAX pilot as they take back all RJ scope. Even that might not be enough...20+ years regional CA's get paid better and have better QOL than UA/CO new hires."

That would be a tough sell to those who left behind 10+ years of seniority at the regional, to make the move to a major, only to lose out on seniority to the guy who never tried to better himself at the regional.

I think you're on the right track, but I don't see a major flying a 50 seat A/C ever, even at the regional level, this plane is proving hard to make a profit. I can see 90 seat lift replacing 70 seat lift. The regional will never go away, there will always be a place in the structure for small short hop feed into super hubs. But the 7000 pilot regionals that are being formed today, aren't being created by management to get even bigger, they are hedges against future scope. SKYW isn't buying XJT because they believe 50 seat lift is over, they are eliminating competetion in the future should scope restrict their 70 seat growth.

Ultimately the lifer at the regional, never has to leave. But his larger better paying equipment might. So while the lifer can stay till 65 at the regional, the non-lifer would have much better job prospects in the future if this were to take place.

 

i hope this goes thru - about time things start turning in a good direction !

 

This has nothing to do with "pulling up the ladder behind themselves" or anything else. It has to do with correcting a big contractual f-up ALPA has not really addressed, creeping scope.

As a former regional dude I mean no harm to anybody or there families, as if this passes there will many layoffs. I'm just personally tired of being furloughed and seeing a UAX barbie-jet flying a route I flew last week. We have to get all flying back to the mainlines. If anybody here feel's this is out of line then you are just wrong.

Frats-

KC

 

Uh, no, I respectfully disagree. Mgmt would have you believe this as they lower the ticket price to "capture" the new lower cost of labor. There is no pie you speak of, that is just mgmt trying to plot one group against another.

Nothing should be given up on the mainline side. I am not ashamed to be paid what I believe EVERY pilot is worth. Its already not worth what it was 5 years ago, which is a shame.

An RJ driver "subsidizes" nobody except themselves. If I was a plumber and decided to underbid everybody else in the market am I "subsidizing" the other highly paid plumbers or just ultimately putting myself out of business?

KC

 

I agree with you 100% KC. I flew for Eastern Express, United Express and American Eagle before getting on at a mainline airline. With the exception of a very limited number of 146's it was all turbo props flying to cities that couldn't support jet loads. At a weak moment, the mainline pilots opened the door to jets and the rest is history. It is time to get all of the jet flying back, it can't happen overnight as their are multi year agreements, but it can happen. It sickens me to see RJ's occupying all of the gates in LAX terminal 8 that were formerly used by 737's flying to the same destinations (Phoenix, Tucson, Portland etc...). I still don't understand how United couldn't make money with aircraft that were paid for that now sit in the desert.

 

Mainline def needs to "take it back" We shall see if that actually happens though and to what extent. If the regionals want to fly mainline routes, then they should "pay to play".

 

I like that idea. Perhaps regionals should have to generate thier own revenue. Lease routes from mainline, pay a franchise fee and a percentage of overall profits, while competing with each other on who can pay mainline the most in order to utilize the paint and reputation of the mainline operation. Then this money could be used to subsidize the lavish lifestyle of the mainline pilots through a profit sharing scheme.

Or, Mainline could do all the flying themselves. I would still be satisfied to fly 50 seaters at reasonable rates at mainline.