Proposed new pay package for SkyWest
09-16-2010 | 05:10 PM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Here are some facts...Every Captain at this airline was once an f.o.! Some of us actually had to start in the right seat of turboprops flying up to 13 legs a day with no autopilot, and a repeater on our side for ILS's flown down to minimums. Not once as an f.o. did I ever think or say that the Captain I flew with deserved less, so that I could make more.
I have been saying that all of us deserve a better offer without trying to cut out 1/2 of the pilot group to benefit myself... Perhaps you should consider that dividing the pilot group(as in give it all to the f.o.'s and none to Captains) will only produce infighting that will not be productive in getting all of us a better overall increase!!!
I have been saying that all of us deserve a better offer without trying to cut out 1/2 of the pilot group to benefit myself... Perhaps you should consider that dividing the pilot group(as in give it all to the f.o.'s and none to Captains) will only produce infighting that will not be productive in getting all of us a better overall increase!!!
Let's be honest here, RJ CAs making 80-100K/yr is fair compensation. 30-40K/yr for FOs is not. I just don't see the wrong in bringing one side up a bit. People here can say what they wish and call me what they wish. But I sincerely believe that if I was in the left seat, I'm willing to go as far as taking a $7-8/hr paycut and shift it to the right seat if that ever comes up for vote. At least this way I can say we're both underpaid and let's fight the good fight together.
I guess though if we have fair pay, regionals wouldn't exist. I don't see why major/legacy pilots would have a problem making 80-100K/yr in the left seat of a 50/70 seater. I'm willing to bet they were unwilling to accept a 30-40K right seater.
I guess we're stuck, fair pay at regionals = no need for regionals. So someone has to be underpaid. The way it is now is that instead of both seats being under paid, it's one seat fairly paid and the other insanely underpaid. I guess one could argue that FOs have been subsidizing the fair compensation on the other side.
Just some of my thoughts, I don't really have a good solution, just wasting time on an overnight. Cheers
09-16-2010 | 05:25 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 0
I don't think the captains deserve less, but do you think they deserve a larger raise than first officers? If so, why?
Secondly, I doubt upgrade was 6 years when you were an FO, most understand the validity of "paying your dues," but these days most guys are spending longer in the right seat than the pilots of yesteryear spent at the "commuters" all together before they were on with a major. For this reason I think a more livable wage is reasonably expected.
Secondly, I doubt upgrade was 6 years when you were an FO, most understand the validity of "paying your dues," but these days most guys are spending longer in the right seat than the pilots of yesteryear spent at the "commuters" all together before they were on with a major. For this reason I think a more livable wage is reasonably expected.
First off, read my second paragraph again... I believe ALL of us deserve more!
Secondly, when I was hired it took a lot longer to be qualified to get on with a regional. I had to fly the Canyon, night freight, charter, air ambulance, and corporate to have enough time to be considered.
But let me repeat myself again so it's abundantly clear "I believe we all deserve more", including f.o.'s! I don't really think 1 or 1.5% is reasonable.
09-16-2010 | 05:28 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
1.5% CA equates to 3% for FOs(pulled out of my arse but sounds right)? and what? a 5% override for 900 Captains. So I bet money wise that's probably enough for a 10% raise for your FOs if there was a pay freeze on the Captain side. Again, I don't know any "facts" about this, all I know is what I read on here. Everything I say is of course my opinion of what's fair. You can always ask for more later right?
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
09-16-2010 | 06:18 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 0
You are pulling alot out of your arse . . . .
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
Never did I say I was envious of Chips paycheck! I did point out the offer of 1 or 1.5% was a little lacking when compared to his almost 40% increase...
You appear to be one of the reasons it is often said "pilots are our own worst enemy"!
09-16-2010 | 07:09 PM
#105
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 0
From: WB Bunkie
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
I personally never feel like: "whatever, its his ticket, not mine." If the CA or FO screws up, we're both getting violated, they don't just grant us impunity unless it was something that one of us literally couldn't control from our seat. Secondly, I believe your first quoted statement "you will be a captain someday" is frustrating, because it implies that we will then (as Captains) have a more livable wage. What about the guys coming up behind us? This is the sentiment that the commuter/regional FO payscale was built on, but times have changed and we're no longer just waiting our turn to upgrade. Some stay longer in the right seat for QOL issues, some because they've been unlucky in their timing, no matter what though, the average guy in the right seat at a regional is probably is his late twenties and should be viewed as a valued team member rather than a guy who slings gear while he waits for his number to come up. It may be a fine distinction but I believe its important to recognize.
Additionally, I must readily concede that not all FOs are motivated and make your trips easier for you, but I believe that partly to a function of SkyWest's antiquated attitude towards the CA/FO dynamic and of course partly just human nature. We are not held as responsible by our chief pilots as the Captain is and that seems to have bred a bit of laziness and lack of responsibility in the right seat. I'm sorry for that.
And Again, thanks for you contributions
09-16-2010 | 07:30 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
From: CR7
I don't think the captains deserve less, but do you think they deserve a larger raise than first officers? If so, why?
Secondly, I doubt upgrade was 6 years when you were an FO, most understand the validity of "paying your dues," but these days most guys are spending longer in the right seat than the pilots of yesteryear spent at the "commuters" all together before they were on with a major. For this reason I think a more livable wage is reasonably expected.
Secondly, I doubt upgrade was 6 years when you were an FO, most understand the validity of "paying your dues," but these days most guys are spending longer in the right seat than the pilots of yesteryear spent at the "commuters" all together before they were on with a major. For this reason I think a more livable wage is reasonably expected.
I can only agree with duvie and I hope that more of us both CP and FOs feels it is time to get both groups up to lowest dignity levels when it comes to pay. No more gain by abusing half of the pilot group........
09-16-2010 | 08:13 PM
#107
veut gagner ŕ la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
You are pulling alot out of your arse . . . .
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
"Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine."
Thats a joke, right? I am being serious, thats just a joke, right?
09-16-2010 | 08:19 PM
#108
New Hire
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Hmmm...I wonder what that watch would have been worth in Philadpelphia if Dan Akroyd had about 15 teamsters standing behind him asking what it was worth?
09-16-2010 | 08:20 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
From: CR7
You are pulling alot out of your arse . . . .
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
For about the 5 millionth time . . . . Skywest pilots, by choice currently HAVE NO UNION. We are paid essentially industry competitive wages by Skywest management for the skills we offer to the company.
Our SAPA pilot representatives do NOT determine how pay raises are allocated. They will make proposals to management, but the final pay rates are ultimately approved or disapproved by management at Skywest.
If you or Paid2Fly are envious of Chips pay check, I suggest both of go apply for his job. The marketplace will determine whether you get it or not. Just like the market place determines what a CRJ FO and CRJ CA are literally worth. If you don't like those numbers either, I suggest you do the best job you can today, polish your resume to a golden shine and tomorrow go get a job somewhere that will pay you what you feel you are worth.
(Remember the film "Trading Places" when Day Akroyd's character is trying to pawn some kind of fancy, expensive watch, the pawn trader tells him, "In Philadelphia, its worth $50 bucks." This is our reality as regional airline pilots. Take it or leave it. My plan is to leave it. I have not a clue what yours is.)
Hermann -
If we are to pay people based on how much they have "invested" in their career, all the trust fund kids or kids of rich parents who sent them to Embry-Riddle or any other zero-to-hero pilot mills should be taking big fat pay cuts. "They" didn't pay cr@p for their job - their parents did.
For the record, one of the most resourceful people I know, who is a SLC FO, paid, out of pocket about $5000 to go from zero fight time to Skywest newhire CRJ FO. I suppose he should probably be paying Skywest for the honor of sitting in their right seat. Wait . . . maybe he should be giving $100 bills to the FO's with say $75,000+ aviation debt.
When it was all said and done, I probably paid $20,000 or so out-of-pocket to get to Skywest from zero flight time. I know . . . I know . . . . that practically makes me a communist. Remember, there is no "Havard School of Aviation" - all our licenses are the same, all are government issued. If you or anyone else on these threads paid $50,000 or $75,000 or $100,000+ for this job, that was YOUR or your PARENTS choice. Don't ask me to compensate you for those decisions. Don't continually punish Skywest for the economic realities of an industry that exists in a constant state of upheaval. Our management teams is one of the best in the industry.
To finish this post with much less sarcasm, and hopefully a few constructive thoughts:
1) I truly feel the pain that all regional airline FOs feel. I was one once. Yes, you deserve more money for your time, your skills, and yes even your investment. We all do. But ultimately that fight is with the consumer who buys our services.
Be patient, you will make Captain one day. On that day you may feel different about why Captains are paid more than FO's for their services. Luckily there have not been many, but there certainly have been days when I gladly would have been flying on the FO's "ticket" and have the entirety of his future career at great risk instead of mine.
2) While easy to do, carefully consider whether the anger or hostility you feel is in fact correctly directed at Skywest management, Skywest Captains, SAPA, Crew Support, etc.
OR
is it more fairly directed at an airline industry that has dramatically stagnated in the last few years. Where the economics of our industry have forever changed the compensation structure and work rules that we all must live with in order to even have a career.
Peace, my fellow aviators. Fly safe!
I have no anger towards the Company Chip or any in management. The company is excellent. They play their part but let's face it we do not play our part well in pay negotiations. They are businessmen and good at it.
It is up to us, the whole pilot group to fight to get all of us to a decent pay level. Nobody will give anything to you or me. Chip or management will not come with presents to you or me and offer us a huge pay raise. That does not make them bad. It just works that way. Anything you want to get you have to fight for it. They expect us to. They know the game of business and negotiation. If you do not fight in any way for what you feel is your right you will never get anything.
I may be a CP or I may not but whatever my position is it does not stop me from seing that we have a group of pilots in our company that is abused and not fairly compensated.
Most FOs at our company are not in their 20s and had an easy ticket to their seat, a lot are experience guys that flown for other companies before and have been flying for 10 to 20 years in commercial aviation.
If you managed to get your tickets by only paying $20k good for you. Not all are so lucky...and by the way I dont care how anyone got their money to pay for theirs, its not about that, if mom paid or not, no mather whom the money came from the total sum is the important and it is also about how much the profession cost in general.
Who cares whom the doctor got his moneyfrom to pay for college or the lawyer, they are paid according to what the total cost is to graduate from law school or med school. Regional FOs are the only ones that pays a lot to gain everything that is needed to work as a pilot and is not paid accordingly.........mainland FOs are paid accordingly so...why not Regional FOs. You will say oh but the mainland FOs have sooo much more experience. That is not always the case. We have a lot of experienced people at the regional level also and many relative unexperienced pilots at mainland.
Many Captains in our company became captains after just 1 year and some with no other than instructor experience before getting into the jet. Nothing wrong with that. Just trying to explain that it is not always up to the pilot why he is not a Captain yet.
That someone is or is not a Captain yet should not matter because what we are talking about is how unfair the Jet FO salary is compaired to all the other pilot groups in the company and they should not have to wait to upgrade to have a fair pay per seat/hour and then not give a s@@t about everyone below them.
I think Duvie is right on this one,.... that we have to help all coming after us, if one pilot is not fairly paid in our company it should be enough for all of us to react.
Let's put aside our attitude of just thinking about ourselves for once. Let's show other Regionals that we have not only quality operating as pilots but also integrity as people. At least why not try.
Last edited by HermannGraf; 09-16-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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