Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba TA Countdown
10-07-2010, 06:03 PM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Switch, Lever & Light Specialist
Posts: 1,065
Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me......Oh, and by the way.....me me me me me me me.
Let's just ensure MY position improves and everyone else can fight for the scraps.
*POOF* enter reality *POOF*
What is going to be done, regardless of what all the individuals on message boards want.....is what will be best for ALL the pilots at ALL 3 carriers. Some will gain, some will lose......none, however, should move greatly one way or the other. Yes, there will be some backward movement.....and some forward movement. However, your seat is still your seat and there will be no bump and flush.....so what have you really lost or gained??? That's right, nothing! This is really the only way to fairly (that's the key word here) integrate dissimilar lists. Bottom line is the respective merger committees will work it out....fairly & equitably or it will go to arbitration....and we don't want that.
Let's just ensure MY position improves and everyone else can fight for the scraps.
*POOF* enter reality *POOF*
What is going to be done, regardless of what all the individuals on message boards want.....is what will be best for ALL the pilots at ALL 3 carriers. Some will gain, some will lose......none, however, should move greatly one way or the other. Yes, there will be some backward movement.....and some forward movement. However, your seat is still your seat and there will be no bump and flush.....so what have you really lost or gained??? That's right, nothing! This is really the only way to fairly (that's the key word here) integrate dissimilar lists. Bottom line is the respective merger committees will work it out....fairly & equitably or it will go to arbitration....and we don't want that.
Last edited by Cruise; 10-07-2010 at 06:37 PM.
10-07-2010, 06:50 PM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: MSP CA
Posts: 353
I would love to be optimistic about this whole accelerated negotiations that we have going on here, however I have seen this company play to many games over the last six years of negotiating to believe they all of a sudden have a change of heart. PNCL is very good at getting your hopes up, then they stab you right in the back.
10-07-2010, 09:20 PM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 691
Originally Posted by Airsupport
Yes I chose to work for pinnacle. You chose to work for colgan. No one forced me to pinnacle. No one forced you to Colgan. Colgan was bought by pinnacle. Not the other way around.
If I were to tell the mec to not combine the list then you guys would end up on the street. Remember colgan is going away. And since the colgan pilots dont have a contract or scope protecting them pinnacle could just move those planes to the mesaba ticket and re-hire all the colgan pilots at the bottom of the list. Thats what they want to do anyway. Get all those planes on the mesaba certificate. I don't think you want that. Pinnacle saved colgan from going under 3 years ago and we are doing it again now. Colgan bleeds money 3 out of 4 quarters every year. All the pinnacle pilots have been doing is keeping it afloat long enough for them to buy a bunch of q400's and try and salvage it. The company has been using our new contract money to bandage up the colgan and now that name is going away.
Please tell me what exactly is the merger policy? I would love to hear what you think it is.
Like I said I would love to hear a logical, not emotional, reason as to why date of hire is unfair.
I am glad to have the three pilot groups together. I think this will help us all with what little job security we have as a regional carrier and also helps keep the potential for whipsawing us around down. Working together is better than fighting each other. I just want whats fair.
If I were to tell the mec to not combine the list then you guys would end up on the street. Remember colgan is going away. And since the colgan pilots dont have a contract or scope protecting them pinnacle could just move those planes to the mesaba ticket and re-hire all the colgan pilots at the bottom of the list. Thats what they want to do anyway. Get all those planes on the mesaba certificate. I don't think you want that. Pinnacle saved colgan from going under 3 years ago and we are doing it again now. Colgan bleeds money 3 out of 4 quarters every year. All the pinnacle pilots have been doing is keeping it afloat long enough for them to buy a bunch of q400's and try and salvage it. The company has been using our new contract money to bandage up the colgan and now that name is going away.
Please tell me what exactly is the merger policy? I would love to hear what you think it is.
Like I said I would love to hear a logical, not emotional, reason as to why date of hire is unfair.
I am glad to have the three pilot groups together. I think this will help us all with what little job security we have as a regional carrier and also helps keep the potential for whipsawing us around down. Working together is better than fighting each other. I just want whats fair.
10-07-2010, 09:39 PM
#145
ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,228
Originally Posted by jayray2
Very good points. All spot on. How can a pilot group from a company which is going away and has no contract protection claim a date of hire integration is unfair? They have no leg to stand on. As a junior pilot at Mesaba, a date of hire integration is the only fair way I see to do this. I have no idea where I would sit at Pinnacle or Colgan, but date of hire would still get my vote (if we were voting).
This is exactly why the pilots of each airline are not in involved in SLI. Every pilot has their own idea of what is "fair" and 9/10 times their idea of fair just happen to be the best outcome for them, what a surprise.
You can keep going back and forth on what way is the "best" when at the end of the day it will be a combination of factors and methods involved, whether this happens in 3 months or 3 years is anyone's guess.
10-07-2010, 10:32 PM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 691
Originally Posted by The Juice
Your post is naive at best. To say Colgan has "no leg to stand on" is comical when you consider that your airline is dropping all of their props and all of their jets are going to Pinnacle. So whose company is really going away?
This is exactly why the pilots of each airline are not in involved in SLI. Every pilot has their own idea of what is "fair" and 9/10 times their idea of fair just happen to be the best outcome for them, what a surprise.
You can keep going back and forth on what way is the "best" when at the end of the day it will be a combination of factors and methods involved, whether this happens in 3 months or 3 years is anyone's guess.
This is exactly why the pilots of each airline are not in involved in SLI. Every pilot has their own idea of what is "fair" and 9/10 times their idea of fair just happen to be the best outcome for them, what a surprise.
You can keep going back and forth on what way is the "best" when at the end of the day it will be a combination of factors and methods involved, whether this happens in 3 months or 3 years is anyone's guess.
10-08-2010, 12:04 AM
#147
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 187
I don't understand why you say that Colgan is "going away". Everything from checks, emails, insurance, etc have had Pinnacle written all over them for quite some time now. We have had a huge turnover in management and other departments. The only thing Colgan about us is a few skank Saabs painted with that name and our callsigns.
10-08-2010, 12:51 AM
#148
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
IMHO no company is "going away".
Colgan is becoming like Value Jet: a company which is growing but has a bad name.
Mesaba has a good contract: not perfect, but pretty darn good.
Pinnacle is a good company strangled by management.
Put them together and you have:
Colasaba or Mesabagan: the biggest TP carrier in the nation
and
Pinasaba or Mesabacle: a quality jet regional
All together Pinacolsaba could be a strong contender against MidFrontChitLica for "mega regional" flying.... unless we get bogged down in inter company bickering. The reality of the integration is no matter what method is chosen, DOH, relative, or some combination thereof, the folks that will be "screwed" are looking at about two years difference for upgrade. While two years is not insignificant, over a thirty year career, it is fairly small.
We must focus on the goal: a good contract AND keeping the flying we have. Some folks (possibly myself included) will be screwed. Some folks will make out like bandits. And most folks will not be radically affected by the SLI.
We must keep our eye on the goal: one outstanding contract. Company X may have FOs that get screwed on the integration, but if they can make $35k/year in a Saab to start, are we really screwing them? Each of us must be objective, remove ourselves from the equation, and push for what is best for all 3000 pilots.
Remember, management is pushing for a contract (at least on the Colgan side). For some reason they want this to happen fast. Pinnacle gave the money to buy the Q's, but they were at a standstill on contract negotiations. Pinnacle pilots generated the money for the q's. Colgan has them and the mainlines seem to want them. Mesaba has a good TP contract. Everyone has something to bring to the table.
Not all of us will win big, but we call ALL WIN here. A fair integration WILL screw some people. That is a fact. But if we keep the screwing to a minimum, give the FNGs a livable wage, and compensate the lifers, we could have a contract that moves from industry "standard" to industry leading.
Work for the good of the industry, not just the good of oneself.
Colgan is becoming like Value Jet: a company which is growing but has a bad name.
Mesaba has a good contract: not perfect, but pretty darn good.
Pinnacle is a good company strangled by management.
Put them together and you have:
Colasaba or Mesabagan: the biggest TP carrier in the nation
and
Pinasaba or Mesabacle: a quality jet regional
All together Pinacolsaba could be a strong contender against MidFrontChitLica for "mega regional" flying.... unless we get bogged down in inter company bickering. The reality of the integration is no matter what method is chosen, DOH, relative, or some combination thereof, the folks that will be "screwed" are looking at about two years difference for upgrade. While two years is not insignificant, over a thirty year career, it is fairly small.
We must focus on the goal: a good contract AND keeping the flying we have. Some folks (possibly myself included) will be screwed. Some folks will make out like bandits. And most folks will not be radically affected by the SLI.
We must keep our eye on the goal: one outstanding contract. Company X may have FOs that get screwed on the integration, but if they can make $35k/year in a Saab to start, are we really screwing them? Each of us must be objective, remove ourselves from the equation, and push for what is best for all 3000 pilots.
Remember, management is pushing for a contract (at least on the Colgan side). For some reason they want this to happen fast. Pinnacle gave the money to buy the Q's, but they were at a standstill on contract negotiations. Pinnacle pilots generated the money for the q's. Colgan has them and the mainlines seem to want them. Mesaba has a good TP contract. Everyone has something to bring to the table.
Not all of us will win big, but we call ALL WIN here. A fair integration WILL screw some people. That is a fact. But if we keep the screwing to a minimum, give the FNGs a livable wage, and compensate the lifers, we could have a contract that moves from industry "standard" to industry leading.
Work for the good of the industry, not just the good of oneself.
10-08-2010, 04:30 AM
#149
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: A better one than the last few years
Posts: 59
DOH is not "fair and equitable" on the Mesaba side because over half of the list was hired post bankruptcy. There was zero hiring for almost two years, while during the same period Pinnacle hired a quarter of their list (300 people). I'll use my info for the example. I'm an early "growth" hire. I sit low 600's (roughly 55%). Same date of hire on Pinnacle's list is 950's (roughly 75%). If you went straight date of hire, those 300 people get an instant boost in overall seniority. I can deal with 20, 30, or even 50, but have to have 300 people instantly leapfrog me and half of the entire list at Mesaba, is not really "fair and equitable." Also, along the same lines, the bottom guys at Pinnacle get screwed because your DOH is determined by when you pass your checkride. Mesaba's DOH is first day of class. If your checkride was scheduled after a potential Mesaba class date, you would instantly have 20, 30, or 40 people between you and the person who used to sit one number senior to you because your checkride was the next morning. That to me is not really "fair and equitable."
DOH probably works well for those hired at Mesaba and Pinnacle prior to the bankruptcy, the lists on both side are fairly interchangeable. There would be a bump here or a loss there, I don't think that anyone would lose more then 4-5% relative seniority. But for those hired post-bankruptcy (we are talking about a large group here, more then the entire Colgan list) DOH is mess.
DOH probably works well for those hired at Mesaba and Pinnacle prior to the bankruptcy, the lists on both side are fairly interchangeable. There would be a bump here or a loss there, I don't think that anyone would lose more then 4-5% relative seniority. But for those hired post-bankruptcy (we are talking about a large group here, more then the entire Colgan list) DOH is mess.
10-08-2010, 05:13 AM
#150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 599
Originally Posted by RatherBGolfin
DOH is not "fair and equitable" on the Mesaba side because over half of the list was hired post bankruptcy. There was zero hiring for almost two years, while during the same period Pinnacle hired a quarter of their list (300 people). I'll use my info for the example. I'm an early "growth" hire. I sit low 600's (roughly 55%). Same date of hire on Pinnacle's list is 950's (roughly 75%). If you went straight date of hire, those 300 people get an instant boost in overall seniority. I can deal with 20, 30, or even 50, but have to have 300 people instantly leapfrog me and half of the entire list at Mesaba, is not really "fair and equitable." Also, along the same lines, the bottom guys at Pinnacle get screwed because your DOH is determined by when you pass your checkride. Mesaba's DOH is first day of class. If your checkride was scheduled after a potential Mesaba class date, you would instantly have 20, 30, or 40 people between you and the person who used to sit one number senior to you because your checkride was the next morning. That to me is not really "fair and equitable."
DOH probably works well for those hired at Mesaba and Pinnacle prior to the bankruptcy, the lists on both side are fairly interchangeable. There would be a bump here or a loss there, I don't think that anyone would lose more then 4-5% relative seniority. But for those hired post-bankruptcy (we are talking about a large group here, more then the entire Colgan list) DOH is mess.
DOH probably works well for those hired at Mesaba and Pinnacle prior to the bankruptcy, the lists on both side are fairly interchangeable. There would be a bump here or a loss there, I don't think that anyone would lose more then 4-5% relative seniority. But for those hired post-bankruptcy (we are talking about a large group here, more then the entire Colgan list) DOH is mess.
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