Comair Flight 191
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 623
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From: Flight Instructor
SO, if this plane took off on the wrong runway, where was ATC? ATC can visually see the airplane. Why did they clear them for take off if they could visually see them taxi onto the wrong runway?
ALso, I dont know if I would have mentioned their names on the internet. Family members may aciidentally read theis without being notified yet
ALso, I dont know if I would have mentioned their names on the internet. Family members may aciidentally read theis without being notified yet
#53
SO, if this plane took off on the wrong runway, where was ATC? ATC can visually see the airplane. Why did they clear them for take off if they could visually see them taxi onto the wrong runway?
ALso, I dont know if I would have mentioned their names on the internet. Family members may aciidentally read theis without being notified yet
ALso, I dont know if I would have mentioned their names on the internet. Family members may aciidentally read theis without being notified yet
As for the names, the only names that I have seen so far are the ones that are already public (such as the crew and a few scattered passengers that the news media learned through family members)
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 584
Likes: 0
#55
There are a lot of holes that lead to what we all believe happened. Unfortunately, it still happened and hindsight is 20/20 as always, and this will serve as a very costly learning experience.
As far as the tower is concerned, they don't have to watch the aircraft depart (I don't think?). Clear him for t/o then get back to whatever, right?
As far as the tower is concerned, they don't have to watch the aircraft depart (I don't think?). Clear him for t/o then get back to whatever, right?
#56
I know that when I first heard about the crew departing the wrong runway, I had a reaction similar to many others... "How could such a blatant error have been made?!?"
However after further thought, I have come up with some ideas on the circumstances. Keep in mind this is only theory, but some of it is IMO, sound thinking.
I'm thinking that if the runway lights were on improperly (since the runway is supposedly restricted to day VFR only), the two runways would look essentially the same.
4/22 is 7000' x 125' useable width.
8/26 is 3500' x 75' useable width, but 125' wide (displaced runway side lines limit the useable width).
Assuming the lights were on, and it was dark enough, the two runways would look the same except for length, right?
However the primary runway 4/22 is bowed in the middle:

As you can see from the airport diagram, the center of the runway is higher than the runup end of 22, and the departure end is considerably lower.
As a result, you can't see the entire length of the runway, but just the first 3000'-4000' feet. If that is the case, the two runways would have looked very similar to the crew, with the exception of the markings and runway heading.
After further consideration, I can now see how such an error could be made. It certainly isn't a common error and there are almost certainly some associated procedural errors, but it's possible. Particularly if the crew didn't have a taxi diagram out and/or didn't refer to it, the runway lights were on for 8/26, and they never checked their runway heading with the HSI.
However after further thought, I have come up with some ideas on the circumstances. Keep in mind this is only theory, but some of it is IMO, sound thinking.
I'm thinking that if the runway lights were on improperly (since the runway is supposedly restricted to day VFR only), the two runways would look essentially the same.
4/22 is 7000' x 125' useable width.
8/26 is 3500' x 75' useable width, but 125' wide (displaced runway side lines limit the useable width).
Assuming the lights were on, and it was dark enough, the two runways would look the same except for length, right?
However the primary runway 4/22 is bowed in the middle:

As you can see from the airport diagram, the center of the runway is higher than the runup end of 22, and the departure end is considerably lower.
As a result, you can't see the entire length of the runway, but just the first 3000'-4000' feet. If that is the case, the two runways would have looked very similar to the crew, with the exception of the markings and runway heading.
After further consideration, I can now see how such an error could be made. It certainly isn't a common error and there are almost certainly some associated procedural errors, but it's possible. Particularly if the crew didn't have a taxi diagram out and/or didn't refer to it, the runway lights were on for 8/26, and they never checked their runway heading with the HSI.
#57
Having personally lost several friends in aircraft crashes over the previuous 45 years, I can still feel the pain and loss that some are now feeling today. Our prayers and thoughts to those who must bear this loss.
Two previous accidents in the 1980’s show the trap that exists in the loss of Situational Awareness and taking off on the wrong runway. One classic accident was a German Hansa Jet with Watcha McCollum who was a prolific and colorful aircraft salesman.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...1004-0&lang=en
The second is a KAL DC-10 that took off on the wrong runway at Anchorage, AK. In the KAL accident, the pilots and passengers in the Piper Navajo that the DC-10 ran over were very lucky
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...1223-0&lang=en
Ernest K. Gann wrote years ago "Fate is the Hunter"
Two previous accidents in the 1980’s show the trap that exists in the loss of Situational Awareness and taking off on the wrong runway. One classic accident was a German Hansa Jet with Watcha McCollum who was a prolific and colorful aircraft salesman.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...1004-0&lang=en
The second is a KAL DC-10 that took off on the wrong runway at Anchorage, AK. In the KAL accident, the pilots and passengers in the Piper Navajo that the DC-10 ran over were very lucky
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...1223-0&lang=en
Ernest K. Gann wrote years ago "Fate is the Hunter"
Last edited by cub pilot; 09-04-2006 at 05:57 PM.
#58
I know that when I first heard about the crew departing the wrong runway, I had a reaction similar to many others... "How could such a blatant error have been made?!?"
However after further thought, I have come up with some ideas on the circumstances. Keep in mind this is only theory, but some of it is IMO, sound thinking.
I'm thinking that if the runway lights were on improperly (since the runway is supposedly restricted to day VFR only), the two runways would look essentially the same.
4/22 is 7000' x 125' useable width.
8/26 is 3500' x 75' useable width, but 125' wide (displaced runway side lines limit the useable width).
Assuming the lights were on, and it was dark enough, the two runways would look the same except for length, right?
However the primary runway 4/22 is bowed in the middle:

As you can see from the airport diagram, the center of the runway is higher than the runup end of 22, and the departure end is considerably lower.
As a result, you can't see the entire length of the runway, but just the first 3000'-4000' feet. If that is the case, the two runways would have looked very similar to the crew, with the exception of the markings and runway heading.
After further consideration, I can now see how such an error could be made. It certainly isn't a common error and there are almost certainly some associated procedural errors, but it's possible. Particularly if the crew didn't have a taxi diagram out and/or didn't refer to it, the runway lights were on for 8/26, and they never checked their runway heading with the HSI.
However after further thought, I have come up with some ideas on the circumstances. Keep in mind this is only theory, but some of it is IMO, sound thinking.
I'm thinking that if the runway lights were on improperly (since the runway is supposedly restricted to day VFR only), the two runways would look essentially the same.
4/22 is 7000' x 125' useable width.
8/26 is 3500' x 75' useable width, but 125' wide (displaced runway side lines limit the useable width).
Assuming the lights were on, and it was dark enough, the two runways would look the same except for length, right?
However the primary runway 4/22 is bowed in the middle:

As you can see from the airport diagram, the center of the runway is higher than the runup end of 22, and the departure end is considerably lower.
As a result, you can't see the entire length of the runway, but just the first 3000'-4000' feet. If that is the case, the two runways would have looked very similar to the crew, with the exception of the markings and runway heading.
After further consideration, I can now see how such an error could be made. It certainly isn't a common error and there are almost certainly some associated procedural errors, but it's possible. Particularly if the crew didn't have a taxi diagram out and/or didn't refer to it, the runway lights were on for 8/26, and they never checked their runway heading with the HSI.
SkyHigh
#59
Prime Minister/Moderator

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,167
Likes: 803
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
There are a lot of holes that lead to what we all believe happened. Unfortunately, it still happened and hindsight is 20/20 as always, and this will serve as a very costly learning experience.
As far as the tower is concerned, they don't have to watch the aircraft depart (I don't think?). Clear him for t/o then get back to whatever, right?
As far as the tower is concerned, they don't have to watch the aircraft depart (I don't think?). Clear him for t/o then get back to whatever, right?
The controller is not specifically obligated to verify that the pilot takes the correct runway (but that might change now
). In the dark, he would see the aircraft lights in the 22/26 departure area, but it would not be visually obvious which runway they were using until they started the roll...remember they had to taxi onto the 26 threshold in order to even get to 22. Tthe controller may have been doing something else anyway.
#60
nearly made a mistake just as well in a situation similar. With few hours under my belt went to kansas city downtown airport, the runway layout is similar (19/1 , 03/21) . I was cleared to land runway 1, thought i had a visual (did) and was currently on a left base for the runway, turned final, and was told by approach to check my heading. Noticed that i was on final for runway 03 quickly, then saw the actual runway 1 and commenced to a new left base for that runway. Habit formed from that was to always check my DG/HSI, especially on final, not as much on departure, but, that is now going to change.
Hopefully the rest of us will also learn from this experience to help it from happening again. Flyer Josh- good analysis.
Hopefully the rest of us will also learn from this experience to help it from happening again. Flyer Josh- good analysis.
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