AMR to trim Eagle costs $75 million, 600 cuts
03-25-2012 | 09:51 AM
#21
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Again, regards to all on the forum. And all reasonable arguments I will gladly listen to 
03-25-2012 | 09:56 AM
#22
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
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From: B757/767
I don't know what I have the power to do.... it is the mainine pilots' decision whether to ease scope or not (in negotiations) not regional pilots, correct? So are we to avoid the regionals and apply directly to mainline? With a whole bunch of what.....piston time, freight doggin', what? At least one forum member who purports to be mainline has done the whole 'you regional guys are stealing our jobs!'. Only to later say to that a young person really ought to go to the shadiest regional with fastest upgrade time. ???
Anecdotally speaking I know of several, for lack of better term, "legacy" children (their parents fly professionally for mainline or FedEx/UPS) and guess what their career path is (each and every one in my experience)? Get to the regionals ASAP and from there make their next career move. So yeah, when I hear mainline pilots sneer at the regionals, offer no *real* solutions-just the usual disdain and hubris, I can't help but say "non-sense!". Sure pilots can avoid individual companies, but to avoid the INDUSTRY? What is the success rate? What is your proposed solution?
Finally, I am not here to argue. I like asking questions, hearing others' points of view. In my original post, I said I am willing to hear reasonable arguments about bringing flying back to mainline. My personal feeling is that the answer so oft comes back as circular reasoning; "We're gonna take the flying back to mainline....because...we are! Yeah! And flying at mainline is awesome! So we're taking it back! Regionals suck!...."
Anecdotally speaking I know of several, for lack of better term, "legacy" children (their parents fly professionally for mainline or FedEx/UPS) and guess what their career path is (each and every one in my experience)? Get to the regionals ASAP and from there make their next career move. So yeah, when I hear mainline pilots sneer at the regionals, offer no *real* solutions-just the usual disdain and hubris, I can't help but say "non-sense!". Sure pilots can avoid individual companies, but to avoid the INDUSTRY? What is the success rate? What is your proposed solution?
Finally, I am not here to argue. I like asking questions, hearing others' points of view. In my original post, I said I am willing to hear reasonable arguments about bringing flying back to mainline. My personal feeling is that the answer so oft comes back as circular reasoning; "We're gonna take the flying back to mainline....because...we are! Yeah! And flying at mainline is awesome! So we're taking it back! Regionals suck!...."
First, let me clear. My post was not intended to be divisive. It was simply intended to stir thought. Second, I am a mainline Delta pilot. But I am a product of regional flying. I came from ExpressJet. I do not, nor have I ever looked down on regional pilots. To do so would be hypocritical IMO.
Now, what I intend to do as a Mainline pilot is chew my rep's ear off by letting him know scope relief is simply unacceptable. Then I chew my CA's ear off by doing the same. I go further then just RJ's though. We need to tighten up everything to include code share, joint ventures, turbo props, geared turbo fan aircraft, etc. I'll be diligent in attending road shows once a TA is presented. I will read the TA in full, ask questions, remain educated, and vote NO to further scope relief. What I'd prefer, is to get all ALPA pilots flying back at mainline. The solution to that? I don't know. Seniority integration is the stickiest thing IMO.
What you can do, is remain educated, stay unified, & fight for the profession. Support mainline pilots in their effort to return flying to mainline. I think we all have to ask ourselves how much we are willing to sacrifice to reach that goal.
03-25-2012 | 10:14 AM
#23
Line Holder
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,015
Likes: 27
From: 737 CA
03-25-2012 | 10:55 AM
#25
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Johnso, don't take my remarks as snarky. I do ask questions, even if they are simple, because I am leaving room for people to correct me. I know I could be wrong, so I leave that door open. My exasperation about the state of the industry and attitudes also not directed at you. I did, however want to know what your proposed solutions are. I suppose my 'last straw' came as I stated above; a poster from mainline who bags on regionals coming out and saying the best career progression is to go to the shadiest, fastest upgrade regional. Then I could no longer take the hypocrasy. But again, my own thoughts and statements could wrong or idiotic, and I am definitely ok with being challenged *kindly*. I find it necessary to challenge one's own beliefs and also have their beliefs examined by others. Hopefully that will keep my more hare brained ideas at bay!
03-25-2012 | 11:03 AM
#26
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 175
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That would work. You would have a hard, permanent, never to be crossed fence between regional and mainline equipment, pay and workrules. But, everyone would be on the same seniority list.
Newhires from the military or civilians with substantial experience in international ops and/or large aircraft (over 100,000 lbs) would go directly to the mainline and those from other regionals or from puppy mill aviation universities or flight schools would go to the regional side. That way career expectation would be maintained.
03-25-2012 | 11:04 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 820
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hopefully APA can take this to the court next week, make a case for one list, industry average pay for all sized airplane at AMR/AA/AE. One list, stapled, 5% under industry for each seat type. Then AE can vote out ALPA and bring in APA once the ball is in that court. Call it a day. Have AA pilots fly all AE airplanes, let everything up to the 319 be AE works for all other aspects, which is a huge savings.
03-25-2012 | 11:07 AM
#28
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
Johnso, don't take my remarks as snarky. I do ask questions, even if they are simple, because I am leaving room for people to correct me. I know I could be wrong, so I leave that door open. My exasperation about the state of the industry and attitudes also not directed at you. I did, however want to know what your proposed solutions are. I suppose my 'last straw' came as I stated above; a poster from mainline who bags on regionals coming out and saying the best career progression is to go to the shadiest, fastest upgrade regional. Then I could no longer take the hypocrasy. But again, my own thoughts and statements could wrong or idiotic, and I am definitely ok with being challenged *kindly*. I find it necessary to challenge one's own beliefs and also have their beliefs examined by others. Hopefully that will keep my more hare brained ideas at bay!
03-25-2012 | 11:40 AM
#29
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
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From: looking for both
There really isn't a solution to the regional problem of low pay, and lack of work rules, for as long as there is a fresh influx of pilots willing to work for those wages.
The dream continues to be "put your time in at the regional to move up to the mainline job", and is still sold as such. We, currently in the industry, know this to be BS. Pilots are stuck at regionals for more years, even life, and regional airplanes are getting bigger thanks to bankruptcy laws, and people not very familiar with how the industry functions allowing scope and work rules to be eroded from major airlines.
The solution is multi faceted. Educating the future generation of pilots about what the industry is truly like is the first, and probably most important step. Without pilots willing to work for peanuts, the way business is done today has to change. Once regionals can't fill classes, they will have to increase pay, work rules, benefits, etc. Once this happens it won't be as lucrative for major airlines to outsource the flying, ergo flying returns to majors. The 1500 time requirement is an important step in this direction, as it makes it much more expensive to get into the industry. This will force new prospects to educate themselves a bit better, which will ultimately mean that will not be joining the ranks of future pilots.
The dream continues to be "put your time in at the regional to move up to the mainline job", and is still sold as such. We, currently in the industry, know this to be BS. Pilots are stuck at regionals for more years, even life, and regional airplanes are getting bigger thanks to bankruptcy laws, and people not very familiar with how the industry functions allowing scope and work rules to be eroded from major airlines.
The solution is multi faceted. Educating the future generation of pilots about what the industry is truly like is the first, and probably most important step. Without pilots willing to work for peanuts, the way business is done today has to change. Once regionals can't fill classes, they will have to increase pay, work rules, benefits, etc. Once this happens it won't be as lucrative for major airlines to outsource the flying, ergo flying returns to majors. The 1500 time requirement is an important step in this direction, as it makes it much more expensive to get into the industry. This will force new prospects to educate themselves a bit better, which will ultimately mean that will not be joining the ranks of future pilots.
03-25-2012 | 12:01 PM
#30
patience
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,068
Likes: 0
There really isn't a solution to the regional problem of low pay, and lack of work rules, for as long as there is a fresh influx of pilots willing to work for those wages.
The dream continues to be "put your time in at the regional to move up to the mainline job", and is still sold as such. We, currently in the industry, know this to be BS. Pilots are stuck at regionals for more years, even life, and regional airplanes are getting bigger thanks to bankruptcy laws, and people not very familiar with how the industry functions allowing scope and work rules to be eroded from major airlines.
The solution is multi faceted. Educating the future generation of pilots about what the industry is truly like is the first, and probably most important step. Without pilots willing to work for peanuts, the way business is done today has to change. Once regionals can't fill classes, they will have to increase pay, work rules, benefits, etc. Once this happens it won't be as lucrative for major airlines to outsource the flying, ergo flying returns to majors. The 1500 time requirement is an important step in this direction, as it makes it much more expensive to get into the industry. This will force new prospects to educate themselves a bit better, which will ultimately mean that will not be joining the ranks of future pilots.
The dream continues to be "put your time in at the regional to move up to the mainline job", and is still sold as such. We, currently in the industry, know this to be BS. Pilots are stuck at regionals for more years, even life, and regional airplanes are getting bigger thanks to bankruptcy laws, and people not very familiar with how the industry functions allowing scope and work rules to be eroded from major airlines.
The solution is multi faceted. Educating the future generation of pilots about what the industry is truly like is the first, and probably most important step. Without pilots willing to work for peanuts, the way business is done today has to change. Once regionals can't fill classes, they will have to increase pay, work rules, benefits, etc. Once this happens it won't be as lucrative for major airlines to outsource the flying, ergo flying returns to majors. The 1500 time requirement is an important step in this direction, as it makes it much more expensive to get into the industry. This will force new prospects to educate themselves a bit better, which will ultimately mean that will not be joining the ranks of future pilots.
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