Airline Pilot Central Forums - Delta to Pinnacle: Concessions or shutdown

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- - Delta to Pinnacle: Concessions or shutdown (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/71424-delta-pinnacle-concessions-shutdown.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301734)

Show me in the Delta pilots contract where it states "we conceed more large RJs to the lowest bidder". Better yet, tell me what pilot group has control over which regional is awarded flying. With your logic, it's APA's fault that Eagle lost flying to Skywest and it's UAL pilots fault that TSA lost flying to GoJet. Your argument doesn't hold water.

Read the old NWA contract, regional flying had to go to ALPA carriers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1301733)

You need to also thank us, your ALPA brothers, for allowing our mainline jobs to be transferred to substandard airlines like Pinnacle, while mainline pilots got furloughed.

None of Pinnacle's flying is really Pinnacle's. All that flying is DAL/NWA mainline, never forget it. You are sitting where you are sitting because mainline jobs got transferred to your low bidding, "pay for training/Gulfstream hiring" airline. THat is it.<---It should have never been this way. Now the young have a taste for blood. And all of a sudden PCL is a high paying airline while GOJet is not :) News FLash: Both airlines are a piece of turd in terms of pay and rules.

I am all for the Pinnacle dudes getting on at Delta but stop with your arrogant drivel. We are all in this mess together.

TEN

PS. We all get fortunate and lucky. We should all help each other out. Pilot groups are not the enemy. We need to work with each other.

Thank you for allowing mainline jobs being transferred to regionals and thank you for taking them away? And then add, we should all help each other out.

What point are you trying to make? Because it sure as heck sounds like, you, DAL mainline, will do what you want for yourselves and screw the rest of us.

The numbers of pilots that mainline has ****ed off and continue to **** off, does not bode well for you. And the fact that they are now non-union, even makes it worse. Those guys won't walk a picket line on your behalf.

And as you lose market share to competitors and you lose more and more leverage (because guess what, as the regionals shrink, so does your leverage in that area), the future does not look so bright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1301747)

Read the old NWA contract, regional flying had to go to ALPA carriers.

NWA no longer exists, & Delta no longer owns any regionals.

So my question is, if the terms are as bad as we fear including attacks upon the seniority system, will ALPA national even sign off on this deal? Remember CCAir...where ALPA wouldnt sign off because they thought it was too concessionary...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1301726)

I would have been ecstatic to get rid of every last outsourced RJ (or bring them over to mainline) if we could have.

I've given that more thought than any normal person should. Outsourcing will never go away. I just don't see it happening. And Comair's demise and Pinnacle's soon-to-be demise, shows that even more blatantly.

The ramifications of the remaining flying going to non-union airlines doesn't bode well for anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301713)

9e filed BK, & Delta provided DIP financing. Delta pilots and DALPA don't control where Delta management shifts their flying in the RJ shuffle game. That's not an option for us. I suppose it's American pilots fault for Eagle losing flying, or United pilots fault for TSA pilots losing flying. Obviously, we all control that.

The "RJ shuffle game" itself is a direct result of Delta pilots decisiosn. Granted, there was alot more at stake in your latest contract.
Do any of you really, truly believe you can get remove all regional flying? Because that's the way alot of you talk. It's not reality, unless, of course, you want to take huge wage concessions and bring DCI flying onboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1301733)

It got transferred to "a low bidding airline" because you (the majority of mainline pilots) voted to allow it. Never forget that

My advice to all the Pinnacle FOs is to kick your job search into high gear immediately. If you haven't upgraded yet, get out ASAP. Make a list of all the places you can see yourself working and get after them. The job market is still very tight (for non-regional jobs) but if this goes down like Comair did, the captains will generally be slow to leave because they don't want to give up the captain's pay until the last minute or in the hopes that "something will happen."

The sooner you leave, the more senior you'll be when others follow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1301691)

What exactly should DALPA and Delta pilots have done to prevent this unfortunate situation? Should they have attempted to negotiate a guarantee of Pinnacle's everlasting viability? :confused:

I'm not aware of any contract in which mainline pilots have negotiated a say in who is chosen to do the outsourced flying. That would be ridiculous.

I hardly think it is ridiculous. It's a contract and open to negotiation. Would it have take some forethought, yup. I suppose that is where my argument lies. The plan was not well-thought out, it will have lasting repurcussions for mainline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djrogs03 (Post 1301745)

Whoa whoa whoa...what did you think was going to happen? Anyone who has done their homework over the last several years knows that the company with the lowest cost margin gets the airplanes. Where have the aircraft gone? To the Lowest bidders...where were the jobs lost...Comair and soon 9E (ALPA carriers) because of high costs. Just because it's not written in fine print on a contract doesn't mean it won't happen. Why not start a flow and give mainline guys an oppurtunity to have a place if crap hits the fan like CZ has? Keep ALPA pilots flying. It's business 101. Why give 76 airplanes to 9E or OH operating with 15+ year payscales when you can operate the same aircraft with guys at CZ and G7 at 5-6 year pay. As I mentioned before I don't blame any pilot group for the choices they make, and I don't blame a single pilot for a yes or no vote, because in reality a pilot makes a decision usually based on what's best for him and if he has one, his family. I'm all for mainline taking back flying...it is your flying. Period. My conceed statement was just saying that giving up larger airframes, because in reality, Delta has 76 seat payscales. Why not fly 76 aircraft there? Trust me I know it was a net loss in Regional seat feed...it will bump mainline flying in between 60-65% in the not so distant future...that's a good thing

You never completed the task. Show me a mainline pilot group that controls whom the regional flying is awarded to. We as a bargaining agent only have so much leverage. We can't raise pay, improve work rules, improve WB scope, recapture all flying, and sent all regional flying to ALPA pilot groups. We have to negotiate. It's not easy when AA pilots are fighting BK, UAL pilots are bargaining up from a BK contract, CAL pilots from a POS 2003 concessionary contract(which supposedly averted BK) and Us Air pilots don't even have a single contract yet! DALPA has managed to negotiate 2 contracts with vast improvements and job recapture, while every other Legacy pilot group has 0.

What 9e has become sucks, but it's not DALPA's fault. Pinnacle had no business buying Colgan or Mesaba.