Airline Pilot Central Forums

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Originally Posted by Vertisch (Post 1332123)

How is backing SmartPref and considering nothing else any less of an ultimatum? Suprisingly the MEC is doing exactly what we want by backing Flightline. We have already been through this debate. We have already looked at the options. Why would we go through it again when we have already chosen?

Your assumption is that nothing else was considered. The XJT MEC have given multiple proposals to move forward and the ASA MEC has turned every one of them down because it didn't include flight line as the final outcome for everybody. And the fact that you have already been through choosing your pbs is irrelevant now. That is why its called joint negotiations, its not just what you want anymore.

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Originally Posted by DontRelaxScope (Post 1332126)

So L-XJT wants a system that doesn't respect seniority, allows the company to control your credit / pay each month more than you yourself can with flightline, makes it so we get less days off during vacation, etc. For a pilot group who doesn't want to take concessions, smartpref is a concession in itself, and a hell of a big one resulting in direct reductions in pay and QOL.

I dont have to have flightline, come up with a system and call it "L-XJT PBS" for all I care, but don't propose something that cuts my pay, time off, and seniority.

Your assumptions are incorrect. Only the bottom restricted group are constrained. It doesn't change everyone's bid AFTER closing like prefbid does. And it globalizes by choosing neutral trips anyway. With smartpref, you can choose your credit between 75-98. Of course if the top half of the pilots bid for 98 hours, the bottom will be at 75. Vacation has been shown to be equal to our current line bidding. I do agree that any pbs in general is a concession for multiple reasons, not just monetarily. Which is why I would want something in return for it. But with the right amount of credit time for training and vacation, it will maintain our current QOL.

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Originally Posted by flyingkangaroo (Post 1332228)

You guys do realize this is just one big game for management dont you... CT is probably laughing his A off reading this thread. Seriously think about as upper management............................ Both groups can't agree, it's fine with them. Most of the synergies are already realized. They are now coming to you as a whipsaw. Skywest guys already have a higher hourly then ASA so it's no problem for them to pay a few dollars more. That said, ASA and XJET 50 payscales are almost the same. What do you think you could negotiate for 70 seat rates that would be more cost competetive then asa or skywest... It's true you guys have some awesome QOL stuff in your contract that we all want and should fight for as a unified group. Those QOL improvements cost money and in general your contract is a little more costly then ours. Sooooo all that said, You would have to undercut ASA if you think you are going to "put the screws" to us...Is that what the intent of your mec is? If it is then we have two mecs that have totally been beaten by management.

In closing, you all look like bickering children. That's how management looks at it too. I'm almost 100 percent sure that this whole negotiating rates is so that they can get what they want out of a combined contract or create one of the most epic whipsaws of all time, all because some grumpy middle aged men never learned to compromise. Saying things like "go ahead and keep it up" and management hates your side more makes BH cry tears of happiness. Skywest may just be starting the most epic union busting campaign of all time.

skyw/xjet/asa.... The only way the pilots will advance is through 1 list, one contract, and one company.

Yes, I'm sure management doesn't mind this whipsaw. Its too bad that one party had to give ultimatums. As for 50 seat rates and the comparison to future 70 seat rates, our 50 seat compensation is within a percentage or two from ASA's crj900 seat compensation. So what should we expect for our rates? Only an arbitrator will figure that out. But this is not us putting the screws to you. Managemen't decision to do was directly caused by the ASA MEC ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by gtechpilot (Post 1332358)

Seriously? For so long the XJT MEC has been crying 'No contract with PBS' and now you want to call out the ASA MEC?

The ASA MEC keeps shooting down SmartPref because the SmartPref programmers were unwilling or unable to fix the software to deal with several issues. The XJT MEC does not support PBS in the first place but seems to have sold you on an unproven, sub par program.

Take a look at the industry as a whole. Airline pilot groups with Flightline have positive outlooks on PBS. Airline pilot groups without Flightline generally do not.

If the XJT MEC had not held the line on so many areas, we could have had a contract by now. Retro pay, no PBS, our work rules or no work rules, etc. Unfortunately, the XJT MEC's inflexibility made the bed we are currently laying in.

Burn it down if we don't get retro pay. Burn it down if we get PBS. When the time comes, 90% say burn it down but 85% vote for cuts.

The XJT pilots on these boards may have been saying no pbs or we will vote no. The MEC has been open minded from the get go. Don't confuse the two.

Your MEC wants to reprogram smartpref so that its now prefbid. Of course they can't do that. Its apples and oranges on how the two work. It was disingenuous for the MEC to ask for that or they are just oblivious otherwise. Smartpref has proven to work with our phase 2 bidding.

The XJT MEC did not hold the line on anything dealing with this PBS issue. In fact, they provided ideas to get past this impass that didn't have a defined outcome one way or the other. The ASA MEC shot every one of them down because it didn't make sure it had an outcome of flight line for everyone. Their ultimatum led DIRECTLY to where we are now. It has NOTHING to do with the XJT MEC.

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Originally Posted by Bozo (Post 1332683)

You will not have the option to vote on a pay rate. Your MEC will do it for you.

The arbitrator will probably decide.

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Originally Posted by Bozo (Post 1332700)

I'm glad you are taking that position because your MEC is negotiating an "over ride" rate to the ERJ. That means it would only be paid when you actually fly the aircraft...no soft time.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

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Originally Posted by ross9238 (Post 1332834)

I just have a couple of questions on the whole PBS thing...Are there any other carriers currently using Smart Pref? How many other carriers are using Flight Line? Why do you guys think management is behind Smart Pref as opposed to Flight Line?

Either way I am so tired of hearing the same thing in almost every thread. All the bickering back and forth between the groups and what have we really accomplished? Nothing. I feel like I am listening to a fight between my 2 and 4 year olds. Both MEC's need to work out their differences in a professional manner and collectively get a good contract for us as a pilot group. I would love to see the XJT work rules implemented as a group for us but knowing any current airline management, they will be looking for concessions.

Management is behind smartpref because it actually comes to a scheduling conclusion without need a half dozen people manually manipulating everyone's lines in order to come up with something that works. If the ASA MEC would withdraw their ultimatum, maybe they can start working together again.

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Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 1333028)

It is the XJT MEC that wants to work with management and be reasonable, and it is the ASA MEC that wants more and is being unreasonable.....Is that correct?

What exactly is the ASA MEC asking for that is more than what the XJT MEC is asking for?

My only beaf with the ASA MEC at this point is not being more aggresive in it's public statements regarding what has really been going on....They need to set the record straight.....

This is just an issue with PBS. It is, in fact, the XJT MEC who is negotiating in good faith and it is the ASA MEC who is setting ultimatums that are holding up everything. None of the other differences between the MECs have held up the negotiations. And now that the ASA MEC has dealt their ace, management is trying to move forward without them. That is the straight record!

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Originally Posted by gtechpilot (Post 1333166)

What you have missed is the company has said openly that they don't care what PBS system is used. The company does not object to Flightline and they never have, but they do object to vacation low which is a work rule along with a few other minor issues.

I don't recall the company ever saying that. In fact, I've heard that the company wants to get rid of vacation low, the best thing about your PBS. How would that not be a concession for the XJT side? They would have to sweeten the pot a WHOLE LOT to get that passed. Or they can go with the PBS system that the XJT MEC supports that will maintain our QOL and wont require as much sweetening to get it passed.

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Originally Posted by gtechpilot (Post 1333172)

SH has said this openly. The XJT MEC has openly bashed the ASA MEC in blast emails to their pilot group while the ASA MEC has refused to engage in the negative rhetoric. I prefer to trust the ASA MEC because they are behaving professionally in public.

If the blastmail sent out is bashing, then you guys need to get some thicker skin. It was just a letter relaying the facts. I'm sorry that the truth is equal to bashing the ASA MEC.;)

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Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 1333189)

gtech....As you know, I support the position of our MEC, but I and others are growing tired of the "behaving professionally in public" while the XJT MEC attacks in blast emails and on the message boards.....Our MEC is losing the public battle that is going on by not attacking back...Take that back to the MEC before it is too late....

This is not about public battles. We are both losing the battle because of your MEC's flight line or no merger ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by JoeMerchant (Post 1333221)

What's wrong with status quo? Your pilots prefer your line bidding to either PBS system...Why is your MEC pushing something that NEITHER pilot group wants?

I think most people will take status quo over having to vote for another concession. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. But the XJT MEC is not pushing this on you guys. They provided ideas that would get to a decision objectively yet your MEC has turned all of them down, even third party arbitration because it doesn't guarantee flight line for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Redundant Guy (Post 1333364)

Hate to break this to you. The ASA side proposed the dual track but wanted to stay separate MEC's until whichever system was ratified by the pilots. Your side said no to that. Why?

Yeah, they didn't want to lose control of the MEC.

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Originally Posted by MR JT8D (Post 1333582)

No new aircraft, no contract, no merger, and still taking concessions....

I don't know about no new aircraft. Our CPA with UAL calls for replacement rights of 75 aircraft and growth of 15 aircraft. And now management wants a dual class rj rate. Who knows?

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Originally Posted by Redundant Guy (Post 1333606)

Go read Section 26 of your contract. Your contract fails to protect you against concessionary or bankruptcy rates being used in arbitration. Furthermore, your MEC can shrug and point at the arbitrator. What they do not want to you know is that they asked the company to do this.

You call section 26 concessionary? This section was there from the begging of the contract in 2004. Its boiler plate contract language unless you give up leverage to come up with rates for aircraft that may not exists for another 9 years. You need to reread that section. It only comes into play in very specific circumstances. That's all I'll say.

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Originally Posted by Redundant Guy (Post 1333641)

Quite simple. Let the next few months speak for themselves? Do you support you MEC trying to undercut another that they are supposed to working with?

Are supposed to be working with? How do you work with an MEC who gives ultimatums and threatens to hold up the merger INDEFINITELY over it? Only managment can invoke section 26 and it was the ASA MEC who pushed them to play that card.

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Originally Posted by surreal1221 (Post 1333823)

Wish I had the time to discuss this with you on the phone, but that last sentence is false.

I highly recommend you read the transition and process agreement and read what it has to say about the Company entering into seperate negotiations with either pilot group individually. Once you see that the TPA secures the right for the pilot group being left out to be present during those types of negotiations, you'll realize that the ASA MEC is actually taking a respectable position of fighting for what is right for OUR pilots.

If the TPA allows our negotiators to be present while the company negotiates with XJT over large two-class aircraft (which it does), then I sure as hell want them there to make sure they can see first hand how low some parties are willing to go on said pay rates. Or, perhaps, how high - and to then secure THOSE rates also for our pilots.

Unless, of course, you would like our brothers over there to undercut us on the rates we currently have - thus reducing our ability to increase, much less protect, our large dual class rates.

That "vague" letter today, albeit maybe not as strong as I had hoped (trust me...I voiced my concerns about the lack of additional context), is full of enough details for anyone who has been following current events going back to the first XJT JetLink Comm stating that the Company is interested in establishing dual class payrates.

Lets just assume for the moment that your inference of the ASA MEC having a vote on the section 26 negotiations, and lets also assume that the ASA MEC would vote it down (a fair assumption), wouldn't we end up in the same place with the ASA MEC flight line or no merger ultimatum? Then what?

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Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 1334022)

I'll give a rare compliment to the ASA MEC on this one. I have no question in my mind (from their gloating on the internet particularly), that the XJT MEC is in cahoots with management to lob us a hand grenade on this one. This entire merger, they have been the bad kids, and now all of a sudden, we stood our ground on one very important issue, and we're the bad kids. So of course, they love this and are using it to their advantage.

They will "negotiate" as long as they are required to under 26, then they will "let" the arbitrator impose an "industry standard" 900 rate well below ours. Then they will laugh at us as our airplanes are transferred and lecture us about being competitive (a change from their lectures to be tough previously). One thing I learned on The Pipe is that the XJT group has no class, and no unity, it is all about them. so I applaud my MEC. Shut it down for all I care. If we never get another plane, I'm fine with it. I will not do this job for one penny less nor one hair worse QOL. McPickle's gloabalized bidding system is not acceptable. I say keep it separate, and we'll all take our chances.

But I think we all know what ALPO's response will be to our protest on the TPA. Here's the sand. Go pound.

One party is being reasonable and the other one isn't. Make an educated, guess, if you can, on which one it is and that will give you the answer as to why we find ourselves in the current cluster.

[QUOTE=Captain Tony;1334052]I can't believe I'm even reading this. For two years, you guys have thumbed your noses at every single proposal management or L-ASA made. You have bragged how you will shut it down. You bragged the ASA MEC needs to stand aside and

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"Let the big boys handle this". You have called the ASA side every aphorism in the book for weak and spineless. Now, suddenly, we stand our ground on the most important issue to us. The one issue our pilots support by an 80+% margin, and you guys label us as the militant miscreants who are holding up the merger, and we get what we deserve. Un freaking believable!

This 900 negotiation your MEC has entered into WILL result in a concessionary rate. it is REQUIRED to go to arbitration is you don't come to an agreement, and management will not agree to anything more than PCL+5%. The arbitrator is required to look at the industry standard, and that standard (Mesa, GoJetss, PSA, PCL) is way below ours. You WILL be forced to fly these planes for cheaper than us, and will then be whipsawed against us. and I suspect you all will be fine with that, since you've convinced yourselves we deserve it for refusing to follow Steve off the cliff.

We are in this predicament because your MEC has held up the show for the last two years. If we'd already agreed to a JCBA, your section 26 would be gone, and management would be negotiating in good faith. Furthermore, your MEC could have pointed to the TPA and told management to shove it. But that hasn't happened. In fact, your MEC has not even allowed the ASA MEC to "observe" these negotiations. So spare my your sanctimonious s#$%.

I just looked at the ALPA website and it shows that the MECs have agreed on all the sections of the contract. So I don't know what you are talking about. The only thing not agreed to is the PBS system. We are in this predicament only because your MEC refuses to listen to anything other than flight line. So management thinks they found away around your MEC. This has nothing to do with the XJT MEC. Personally, I'm not even against the ASA MEC being in these negotiations with some caveats. I just want all you guys to understand that this is the direct result of your MEC and management's counter to their ultimatum. We will both end up worse for it.

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Originally Posted by Captain Tony (Post 1334093)

Your understanding it 100% wrong. Management has held the position that they didn't care which PBS vendor we used as long as we all agreed on PBS up until about two months ago. The only part they didn't like was vacation low, which we have already agreed to modify.

And we all know what management decided to do now that the ASA MEC did not want to compromise or even try to get past this impass with the XJT MEC with third party neutral arbitration.

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Originally Posted by ja2c (Post 1334317)

The ASA MEC did indeed research Smartpref. From what I know about the two systems I do not understand how anybody would think Smartpref is better than Flightline. Can you please tell me how Globalization is better than Non-Globalization? Also, Why is Smartpref good for your pilots but Flight line is not?

Thanks

Well, if you don't know why we would think smartpref is better, then it just goes to show that the ASA MEC didn't do their research. Also, smartpref doesn't require people to manually socialize EVERYONE'S lines AFTER the bid window closes in order to make it work. Flight line could be made to work for us, according to the scheduling committee. But it would require vast work rule improvements overt the existing ones. Seeing that management doesn't mind flight line WITHOUT vacation low (the best thing about your pbs), how could it be made so it wouldn't be a concession for the XJT side? I thought you guys did your research yet you keep asking the same questions over and over again.