XJT Whipsaw
01-19-2013 | 12:18 PM
#101
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From: B757/767
12 yr CA $87.31
3-4 yr FO $38.58
01-19-2013 | 12:26 PM
#102
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From: A320
If anyone thinks we are going to fly larger aircraft for less than our 50 seat rates then they have another thing coming. They can have the airplanes, we're done giving. We would have to fly them at less than our current 50 seat rates in order to undercut the ASA side, which is exactly what they are accussing us of wanting to do. No thanks.
01-19-2013 | 12:26 PM
#103
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Listen Tony, im not on here playing games, trying to "get a rise out of people" as you put it, im just telling you what happened. The cliff notes are very simple: we said we'd prefer to keep line bidding, you said you prefer flightline. We said ok, we'll do some research and get back to you with a compromise. We spend hundreds of hours researching different bidding systems and concluded that flightline is not acceptable for our pilots. We offered Smartpref as a compromise. You concluded (based on very little research using no work rules) that Smartpref was also unacceptable for your group in addition to our line bidding (which you also did zero research on...in fact, you never even looked at it). We said ok, please provide us with another alternative. We gave you one when you said no to line bidding so please give us one since we are saying no to flightline. You said you will not accept any other system. Then the company comes out and says flightline has actually increased costs from line bidding and they are also interested in an alternative. They begin working with us to negotiate 70+ seat rates. Are we married to Smartpref? NO. Are we married to line bidding? No but we do like it. All we ask is for you the present one system that is acceptable to your pilot group other than flightline. The position of the 5% of our pilots who post on the crackpipe has NEVER been the position of the MEC. So please stop referring to such posts as our past position. There, did I miss anything? Flame on man, flame on.
Thanks
01-19-2013 | 12:32 PM
#104
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From: A320
The ASA MEC did indeed research Smartpref. From what I know about the two systems I do not understand how anybody would think Smartpref is better than Flightline. Can you please tell me how Globalization is better than Non-Globalization? Also, Why is Smartpref good for your pilots but Flight line is not?
Thanks
Thanks
01-19-2013 | 01:36 PM
#105
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From: EMB 145 CPT
How is backing SmartPref and considering nothing else any less of an ultimatum? Suprisingly the MEC is doing exactly what we want by backing Flightline. We have already been through this debate. We have already looked at the options. Why would we go through it again when we have already chosen?
So L-XJT wants a system that doesn't respect seniority, allows the company to control your credit / pay each month more than you yourself can with flightline, makes it so we get less days off during vacation, etc. For a pilot group who doesn't want to take concessions, smartpref is a concession in itself, and a hell of a big one resulting in direct reductions in pay and QOL.
I dont have to have flightline, come up with a system and call it "L-XJT PBS" for all I care, but don't propose something that cuts my pay, time off, and seniority.
I dont have to have flightline, come up with a system and call it "L-XJT PBS" for all I care, but don't propose something that cuts my pay, time off, and seniority.
You guys do realize this is just one big game for management dont you... CT is probably laughing his A off reading this thread. Seriously think about as upper management............................ Both groups can't agree, it's fine with them. Most of the synergies are already realized. They are now coming to you as a whipsaw. Skywest guys already have a higher hourly then ASA so it's no problem for them to pay a few dollars more. That said, ASA and XJET 50 payscales are almost the same. What do you think you could negotiate for 70 seat rates that would be more cost competetive then asa or skywest... It's true you guys have some awesome QOL stuff in your contract that we all want and should fight for as a unified group. Those QOL improvements cost money and in general your contract is a little more costly then ours. Sooooo all that said, You would have to undercut ASA if you think you are going to "put the screws" to us...Is that what the intent of your mec is? If it is then we have two mecs that have totally been beaten by management.
In closing, you all look like bickering children. That's how management looks at it too. I'm almost 100 percent sure that this whole negotiating rates is so that they can get what they want out of a combined contract or create one of the most epic whipsaws of all time, all because some grumpy middle aged men never learned to compromise. Saying things like "go ahead and keep it up" and management hates your side more makes BH cry tears of happiness. Skywest may just be starting the most epic union busting campaign of all time.
skyw/xjet/asa.... The only way the pilots will advance is through 1 list, one contract, and one company.
In closing, you all look like bickering children. That's how management looks at it too. I'm almost 100 percent sure that this whole negotiating rates is so that they can get what they want out of a combined contract or create one of the most epic whipsaws of all time, all because some grumpy middle aged men never learned to compromise. Saying things like "go ahead and keep it up" and management hates your side more makes BH cry tears of happiness. Skywest may just be starting the most epic union busting campaign of all time.
skyw/xjet/asa.... The only way the pilots will advance is through 1 list, one contract, and one company.
Seriously? For so long the XJT MEC has been crying 'No contract with PBS' and now you want to call out the ASA MEC?
The ASA MEC keeps shooting down SmartPref because the SmartPref programmers were unwilling or unable to fix the software to deal with several issues. The XJT MEC does not support PBS in the first place but seems to have sold you on an unproven, sub par program.
Take a look at the industry as a whole. Airline pilot groups with Flightline have positive outlooks on PBS. Airline pilot groups without Flightline generally do not.
If the XJT MEC had not held the line on so many areas, we could have had a contract by now. Retro pay, no PBS, our work rules or no work rules, etc. Unfortunately, the XJT MEC's inflexibility made the bed we are currently laying in.
Burn it down if we don't get retro pay. Burn it down if we get PBS. When the time comes, 90% say burn it down but 85% vote for cuts.
The ASA MEC keeps shooting down SmartPref because the SmartPref programmers were unwilling or unable to fix the software to deal with several issues. The XJT MEC does not support PBS in the first place but seems to have sold you on an unproven, sub par program.
Take a look at the industry as a whole. Airline pilot groups with Flightline have positive outlooks on PBS. Airline pilot groups without Flightline generally do not.
If the XJT MEC had not held the line on so many areas, we could have had a contract by now. Retro pay, no PBS, our work rules or no work rules, etc. Unfortunately, the XJT MEC's inflexibility made the bed we are currently laying in.
Burn it down if we don't get retro pay. Burn it down if we get PBS. When the time comes, 90% say burn it down but 85% vote for cuts.
Your MEC wants to reprogram smartpref so that its now prefbid. Of course they can't do that. Its apples and oranges on how the two work. It was disingenuous for the MEC to ask for that or they are just oblivious otherwise. Smartpref has proven to work with our phase 2 bidding.
The XJT MEC did not hold the line on anything dealing with this PBS issue. In fact, they provided ideas to get past this impass that didn't have a defined outcome one way or the other. The ASA MEC shot every one of them down because it didn't make sure it had an outcome of flight line for everyone. Their ultimatum led DIRECTLY to where we are now. It has NOTHING to do with the XJT MEC.
I just have a couple of questions on the whole PBS thing...Are there any other carriers currently using Smart Pref? How many other carriers are using Flight Line? Why do you guys think management is behind Smart Pref as opposed to Flight Line?
Either way I am so tired of hearing the same thing in almost every thread. All the bickering back and forth between the groups and what have we really accomplished? Nothing. I feel like I am listening to a fight between my 2 and 4 year olds. Both MEC's need to work out their differences in a professional manner and collectively get a good contract for us as a pilot group. I would love to see the XJT work rules implemented as a group for us but knowing any current airline management, they will be looking for concessions.
Either way I am so tired of hearing the same thing in almost every thread. All the bickering back and forth between the groups and what have we really accomplished? Nothing. I feel like I am listening to a fight between my 2 and 4 year olds. Both MEC's need to work out their differences in a professional manner and collectively get a good contract for us as a pilot group. I would love to see the XJT work rules implemented as a group for us but knowing any current airline management, they will be looking for concessions.
It is the XJT MEC that wants to work with management and be reasonable, and it is the ASA MEC that wants more and is being unreasonable.....Is that correct?
What exactly is the ASA MEC asking for that is more than what the XJT MEC is asking for?
My only beaf with the ASA MEC at this point is not being more aggresive in it's public statements regarding what has really been going on....They need to set the record straight.....
What exactly is the ASA MEC asking for that is more than what the XJT MEC is asking for?
My only beaf with the ASA MEC at this point is not being more aggresive in it's public statements regarding what has really been going on....They need to set the record straight.....
gtech....As you know, I support the position of our MEC, but I and others are growing tired of the "behaving professionally in public" while the XJT MEC attacks in blast emails and on the message boards.....Our MEC is losing the public battle that is going on by not attacking back...Take that back to the MEC before it is too late....
Go read Section 26 of your contract. Your contract fails to protect you against concessionary or bankruptcy rates being used in arbitration. Furthermore, your MEC can shrug and point at the arbitrator. What they do not want to you know is that they asked the company to do this.
Wish I had the time to discuss this with you on the phone, but that last sentence is false.
I highly recommend you read the transition and process agreement and read what it has to say about the Company entering into seperate negotiations with either pilot group individually. Once you see that the TPA secures the right for the pilot group being left out to be present during those types of negotiations, you'll realize that the ASA MEC is actually taking a respectable position of fighting for what is right for OUR pilots.
If the TPA allows our negotiators to be present while the company negotiates with XJT over large two-class aircraft (which it does), then I sure as hell want them there to make sure they can see first hand how low some parties are willing to go on said pay rates. Or, perhaps, how high - and to then secure THOSE rates also for our pilots.
Unless, of course, you would like our brothers over there to undercut us on the rates we currently have - thus reducing our ability to increase, much less protect, our large dual class rates.
That "vague" letter today, albeit maybe not as strong as I had hoped (trust me...I voiced my concerns about the lack of additional context), is full of enough details for anyone who has been following current events going back to the first XJT JetLink Comm stating that the Company is interested in establishing dual class payrates.
I highly recommend you read the transition and process agreement and read what it has to say about the Company entering into seperate negotiations with either pilot group individually. Once you see that the TPA secures the right for the pilot group being left out to be present during those types of negotiations, you'll realize that the ASA MEC is actually taking a respectable position of fighting for what is right for OUR pilots.
If the TPA allows our negotiators to be present while the company negotiates with XJT over large two-class aircraft (which it does), then I sure as hell want them there to make sure they can see first hand how low some parties are willing to go on said pay rates. Or, perhaps, how high - and to then secure THOSE rates also for our pilots.
Unless, of course, you would like our brothers over there to undercut us on the rates we currently have - thus reducing our ability to increase, much less protect, our large dual class rates.
That "vague" letter today, albeit maybe not as strong as I had hoped (trust me...I voiced my concerns about the lack of additional context), is full of enough details for anyone who has been following current events going back to the first XJT JetLink Comm stating that the Company is interested in establishing dual class payrates.
I'll give a rare compliment to the ASA MEC on this one. I have no question in my mind (from their gloating on the internet particularly), that the XJT MEC is in cahoots with management to lob us a hand grenade on this one. This entire merger, they have been the bad kids, and now all of a sudden, we stood our ground on one very important issue, and we're the bad kids. So of course, they love this and are using it to their advantage.
They will "negotiate" as long as they are required to under 26, then they will "let" the arbitrator impose an "industry standard" 900 rate well below ours. Then they will laugh at us as our airplanes are transferred and lecture us about being competitive (a change from their lectures to be tough previously). One thing I learned on The Pipe is that the XJT group has no class, and no unity, it is all about them. so I applaud my MEC. Shut it down for all I care. If we never get another plane, I'm fine with it. I will not do this job for one penny less nor one hair worse QOL. McPickle's gloabalized bidding system is not acceptable. I say keep it separate, and we'll all take our chances.
But I think we all know what ALPO's response will be to our protest on the TPA. Here's the sand. Go pound.
They will "negotiate" as long as they are required to under 26, then they will "let" the arbitrator impose an "industry standard" 900 rate well below ours. Then they will laugh at us as our airplanes are transferred and lecture us about being competitive (a change from their lectures to be tough previously). One thing I learned on The Pipe is that the XJT group has no class, and no unity, it is all about them. so I applaud my MEC. Shut it down for all I care. If we never get another plane, I'm fine with it. I will not do this job for one penny less nor one hair worse QOL. McPickle's gloabalized bidding system is not acceptable. I say keep it separate, and we'll all take our chances.
But I think we all know what ALPO's response will be to our protest on the TPA. Here's the sand. Go pound.
[QUOTE=Captain Tony;1334052]I can't believe I'm even reading this. For two years, you guys have thumbed your noses at every single proposal management or L-ASA made. You have bragged how you will shut it down. You bragged the ASA MEC needs to stand aside and
"Let the big boys handle this". You have called the ASA side every aphorism in the book for weak and spineless. Now, suddenly, we stand our ground on the most important issue to us. The one issue our pilots support by an 80+% margin, and you guys label us as the militant miscreants who are holding up the merger, and we get what we deserve. Un freaking believable!
This 900 negotiation your MEC has entered into WILL result in a concessionary rate. it is REQUIRED to go to arbitration is you don't come to an agreement, and management will not agree to anything more than PCL+5%. The arbitrator is required to look at the industry standard, and that standard (Mesa, GoJetss, PSA, PCL) is way below ours. You WILL be forced to fly these planes for cheaper than us, and will then be whipsawed against us. and I suspect you all will be fine with that, since you've convinced yourselves we deserve it for refusing to follow Steve off the cliff.
We are in this predicament because your MEC has held up the show for the last two years. If we'd already agreed to a JCBA, your section 26 would be gone, and management would be negotiating in good faith. Furthermore, your MEC could have pointed to the TPA and told management to shove it. But that hasn't happened. In fact, your MEC has not even allowed the ASA MEC to "observe" these negotiations. So spare my your sanctimonious s#$%.
This 900 negotiation your MEC has entered into WILL result in a concessionary rate. it is REQUIRED to go to arbitration is you don't come to an agreement, and management will not agree to anything more than PCL+5%. The arbitrator is required to look at the industry standard, and that standard (Mesa, GoJetss, PSA, PCL) is way below ours. You WILL be forced to fly these planes for cheaper than us, and will then be whipsawed against us. and I suspect you all will be fine with that, since you've convinced yourselves we deserve it for refusing to follow Steve off the cliff.
We are in this predicament because your MEC has held up the show for the last two years. If we'd already agreed to a JCBA, your section 26 would be gone, and management would be negotiating in good faith. Furthermore, your MEC could have pointed to the TPA and told management to shove it. But that hasn't happened. In fact, your MEC has not even allowed the ASA MEC to "observe" these negotiations. So spare my your sanctimonious s#$%.
The ASA MEC did indeed research Smartpref. From what I know about the two systems I do not understand how anybody would think Smartpref is better than Flightline. Can you please tell me how Globalization is better than Non-Globalization? Also, Why is Smartpref good for your pilots but Flight line is not?
Thanks
Thanks
01-19-2013 | 01:39 PM
#106
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 240
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From: Catching breathe
The ASA MEC ran smartpref with ZERO WORKRULES! I have explained the pros and cons in countless other threads, I encourage you to read them. Here is the one major reason flightline is sub par in our opinion: the company can go in and run hundreds of solutions until they find the one thats best for them, not to mention you have to fill out countless bid sheets with all your preferences. With smartpref, you bid live, one time, and thats the final solution. No manipulation, just what you can hold. There are many other advantages our work rules bring to the table and I have explained these in detail in multiple threads.
01-19-2013 | 02:52 PM
#107
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Nope. Your see when you fail to have language in your contract that prevents using bankrupt airline rates in an arbitration the arbitrator can use them when calculating a new rate.
01-19-2013 | 02:54 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: A320
Except with that one live bid sheet the company has already "pre manipulated" what it wants due to globalization. At minimum every month 30% of line holders will be globalized. this number can go as high as 70% in holiday months. Work rules limiting this just make it worse. We know this because we already tested it with our work rules.
01-19-2013 | 02:57 PM
#109
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Joined: Jul 2012
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If anyone thinks we are going to fly larger aircraft for less than our 50 seat rates then they have another thing coming. They can have the airplanes, we're done giving. We would have to fly them at less than our current 50 seat rates in order to undercut the ASA side, which is exactly what they are accussing us of wanting to do. No thanks.
Did you ever think why the Company called you just a couple of weeks prior to 9E vote. The clock has started and now you can't stop it.
01-19-2013 | 03:03 PM
#110
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From: EMB 145 CPT
The ASA MEC ran smartpref with ZERO WORKRULES! I have explained the pros and cons in countless other threads, I encourage you to read them. Here is the one major reason flightline is sub par in our opinion: the company can go in and run hundreds of solutions until they find the one thats best for them, not to mention you have to fill out countless bid sheets with all your preferences. With smartpref, you bid live, one time, and thats the final solution. No manipulation, just what you can hold. There are many other advantages our work rules bring to the table and I have explained these in detail in multiple threads.
Nope. Your see when you fail to have language in your contract that prevents using bankrupt airline rates in an arbitration the arbitrator can use them when calculating a new rate.
If anyone thinks we are going to fly larger aircraft for less than our 50 seat rates then they have another thing coming. They can have the airplanes, we're done giving. We would have to fly them at less than our current 50 seat rates in order to undercut the ASA side, which is exactly what they are accussing us of wanting to do. No thanks.
Did you ever think why the Company called you just a couple of weeks prior to 9E vote. The clock has started and now you can't stop it.
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