I haven't read through every word of every post on this thread so it's possible that someone has already addressed this, but, unless something has changed, you do not need a landing at another airport that is greater than 50NM away from your point of departure for building XC time for an ATP...you just have to wander more than 50NM away during your lesson.

I never found that hard.

Now, I haven't read through the new rules.....did this change?

 

No, it didn't change.

But it may not always be that easy go 50NM. A 141 operation will typically have set practice areas and training airports, and you're supposed to use those.

If the student is a career-pilot type, then yes it should be easy because it's just as much to his benefit as the CFIs to build XC time, so probably almost any flight with such a student might as well be an ATP XC flight. But I would do the math and find out how much extra flight time (and cost) will be added to the program in the interest of full disclosure. Otherwise the student (or his parents) might complain to the boss at the end.

But if the student is recreational, then it would probably be unethical to add any additional flight time if it's just for the instructor's benefit. A possible work-around for free-lance instructors might be to discuss this issue with the student...offer to cut him a break on instructor fees if he agrees to add enough block to turn each flight into a XC. That way it would be part of your agreed compensation.

 

FLYR nails it...you seem to be focusing on the outliers (low time guy whupping up on a high time pilot) not the trend, or data along the bell shaped curve.

Disclaimer;
I don't say I value experience because I think I'm uniquely gifted or talented. I value experience because I've seen it develop in students at the flight school, and also from flying with pilots who are more experienced than me. They teach me things whether intentionally or not, and I feel like such an amateur! I wish FO pay were better, but I enjoy and am grateful for the mentoring experience of flying with people who have more experience than I do!

 

Bingo!!!!!

 

Is this a trick question? The answer is "D". All of the above.

 

RE getting xc without taking advantage of students

Offer the student the opportunity to go xc for the fun of it. Be honest and tell them the flight isn't required for the certificate. I instructed in south Florida and several students welcomed taking an extra flight to the keys or Bahamas just for fun. Just be honest with your students and employer. Heck, many 141 schools have a 61 department, and offering to give them a few extra rental hours might make everybody happy. It's called ” up selling”.

 

The point isn't to get over it but to recognize that Congressional legislation is reactionary with little evidenced based science or research! Look how the 121 Cargo pilots got cut out of the duty rest equation! The upcoming ATP requirement for 121 employment probably is a good thing for existing 121 pilots making them that much more valuable but certainly a thorn in the side for aspiring pilots!
It comes down to money! This should be an example of why PAC contributions to your Union are so crucial in getting lobbyists to look after pilot interests! AOPA has a Political Action Committee as well!

 

Deleted. Attempted to reply to an older post.

 

You missed my point....that being that there seem to be a few people on this thread who believe that you need to land at another airport in order to build XC time for purposes of the ATP aeronautical experience requirement.

 

In a 141 school I would think many of the students have aspirations to go to the airlines. If so, doing the basics while on a cross country flight is helping the student gain x/c time he'll need later. Even if your student doesn't plan on an aviation career he's probably going to do some cross country flying after he's passed his checkride. You're arming him with additional knowledge on the cross country flights and broadening his comfort zone by getting him away from his home area. Also getting more of the required x/c time if he pursues an instrument rating.

I could also see some good nav practice here too. Flight plan a short cross country flight. Take off and fly to the first landmark. Do some steep turns and stalls. Have the student orient themselves afterward and fly to the second landmark. Set up some slowflight in between the second and third checkpoint. Recover from that and fail an engine between the third and fourth to let them find a suitable landing area in unfamiliar territory.

That seems like some decent real world training. Short / soft field practice at the destination airport. Put them under the hood and let them use ground based nav back home for a little while. The caveat of course is you're not going to get this done in an hour flight. If they're good with going for two hours, you're golden. Hop out at the destination airport for a bathroom break, Coke, and a weather brief before heading home to break up the training scenario and get them a brief rest.

My instructor and I did a few flights like this and it worked well. Good real world flying while still in the training mode. I had an ex-Air Force IP for my private instruction and in a Part 61 school who decided this was the way to train after I had demonstrated enough proficiency with the basics during local flights.