Good productive post Bar.

Would a signed petition help? Ideas on how it should read and who to send it to? This sucks too much to just do nothing. You Eagle guys need to do something about it too. It's just not ok.

Fly safe. Fly legal.

Was your contract imposed on you?

IMHO, it is your responsibility because the mainline pilot group agreed to a contract which allowed NON United pilots to perform your work. The "express" carriers are alter-ego airlines, they are a threat to your work and should not exist at all. Mainline pilot groups create and sustain the problem via the agreements they negotiate and ratify.

I don't see a great difference between United / Continental, or Northwest / Delta or Skywest, ASA / Expressjet, Republic or the others. Somehow we ALPA members are comfortable allowing management decide what "unity" means in our association. (I know I'll catch hell for writing this, but I consider our express partners to be pilots. ... period, same as guys on my list are, with the same concerns ... we all fly for our mainline brand, the difference is mostly pay and some training to operate in a different environment)

Maybe I am too old ... but what Pan Am / Ransome did, Delta / Northeast, or Northwest / Southern makes a lot more sense than this whipsaw outsourcing garbage model that defines our profession today. If we had one seniority list flying passengers within that network, indistinguishable from one another, we would not have problems like your job security (scope) concerns or punitive fees assessed from those who can least afford to subsidize mainline.

True but there were many of us that simply lived within our means. I KNOW, easier said than done, and it wasn't easy at times. But it CAN be done. Like the rest of life, manage expectations.

Again, true. And it's complete fantasy land, but just imagine if even 50% of pilots were able to move every time a base opened or closed, and the financial impact it would have on the employer? Again, fantasy land, but it would be funny to watch.

Perhaps we are witnessing the evolution of management ... moving from irony to paradox.

Irony: Decide to save money by outsourcing. Spend 12 Billion on equipment to achieve goal of saving money. End up bankrupt.

Paradox: Decide to save money by outsourcing. Increase profits at mainline. Charge employees of outsourcing provider for costs associated with outsourcing.

Delta's merger is ahead of yours. It has reached enigmatic. The company makes money. How, is an enigma to most of us line guys.

Doubt many folks would sign a petition because you never know what the petitioner is going to state when they hand over the list.

I'd just print the memo and say "hey, we really need some help, would you be willing to mention this to your contacts."

True, NOTHING but a perfect example of how management/CEO's/CFO's/the bean counters/share holders/wall street ALWAYS holds the cards and is the puppet master.

"we need to cut costs and can do it by outsourcing!!!!!!!"..........."outsourcing is costing us money and we need to recoup those costs!!!!!!!!!"

Nevermind the collateral costs that the outsourced/sub par lift provider costs the mainline carrier is service failure, loss of passengers loyalty, etc etc etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10

This does apply to all UAX carriers. Just confirmed it with the CP.

Do we have to pay for a jumpseat? There are never seats open on United flights anyway when I go to work so I normally just list for the jumpseat.

Thank you, why a lot of people can't understand this I don't know. ALPA should be spending every single PAC dollar working to get rid of outsourcing AND THEN work on things such as international customs issues in the Middle East.

What will be fun to watch is come fall, if crewmembers aren't getting to work combined with the hiring that will take place and the fiasco/poop show that will occur at the contracted vendor level.

Does one get charged for jumpseating on a Bro that effectively has no jumpseat? Has you some time play football?

Hey, you might be on to something here! Only deny when it benefits the pilot (and with his tacit approval) and hurts management. Interesting concept. I wonder if such a movement would be considered "self help." Hmmm.

Does your commuter policy pay protect you?

Wait until they slap that imputive income on it and the IRS takes more.

The PAC effort is correct in going after the preclearance facility. We are in that together. If we don't fly, we don't need feed. You and I (no matter who you are or I am) have the same network interests here.

The airlines clamoring for the preclearance facility have announced O&D out of JFK and IAD this week. They are going to push EU limits and part of that is having their own US hub, even if it happens to bridge Europe & Asia more than the US. Just as English is the international language of business and the Dollar is the most widely held international currency, US travel documents facilitate a lot of business. Simply put, our Nation should not help alien companies put US workers out of work.

Bucking Bar you are crazy smucking fart. You have some incredible insight and thought provoking posts. Thank you.

This. Completely. Sucks.

When we get our heads back to how we began, we will move this profession forward.

Well so much for my 4 leg commute

Good point.

I'm assuming these fees are in addition to imputed income? And will those jumpseating but sitting in the back pay these fees?

This is hilarious

Wait until Obamacare taxes your employer paid portion of your healthcare, that's why it is already on your W2.

Obama Willing to Consider Tax on Employer-Paid Health Benefits | 44 | washingtonpost.com

Well the problem is that you greedy Boomers lobbied Congress, the FAA, and our "union" to allow you to work 5 more years at the top of the pay scale, thus sticking us "commuter pilots" here with no upward movement. Should we have all waited until our 40s to get married, buy a house, and start a family? Good on you that you survived your "commuter days" and made it big. Way to say "I got mine screw you" to the rest of us. You typify the a##hole mainline pilot who looks down on everyone. Try looking in the mirror instead.

WHEN you get bumped going home (because the disgruntled regional captain refused to "work the numbers" to get you on my weight restricted flight), be sure to cry to YOUR company and YOUR union how you got screwed. I bet it gets fixed pretty quick.

BTW, I have pass privileges on three airlines.

wouldn't brag about working for Republic :D

SKW has pass privs on 3 airlines, and depending on base, 4.

Could be a SKW guy... You know what they say about assumptions...

Great, you can use those benefits to ride someone else as I won't let you Jumpseat on my mainline plane either. We will be "wt restricted' also just like every other RJ out there that I have ever tried to Jumpseat on. In fact we may have too much cargo to fill the empties in the cabin except for our own non-revs. Just like the "we don't have ballast or its too small up here for a jumpseater in the cockpit of the RJ". You get to watch us depart just like we watch you.

Hope that doesn't affect you on your way home either. That would be terrible. Maybe some of that string of express pilots I see from ORD to DEN or MCO will have to use all their extra pass benefits to get home. That is if they can find a mainline carrier pilot group they haven't pi$$ed off yet to carry them.

Here are my thoughts.

1. No one makes you commute. That means NO ONE. It is a choice and it has been part of the industry for a long time. If you didn't understand the possibile plus and minuses of commuting when you started that is not a mainline pilots fault.

2. Your base has been changed or closed. Again not a mainline pilots fault. You don't work for the mainline. You company bids for flying from every carrier in the US. You need to address you base concerns with your company. They bid the flying and move the basses. Again, not a mainline pilots fault.

3. Waste fuel. Good one. The majors never shuffle the deck with new carriers to replace the poor performing ones. Look at Mesa. They performed poorly and were replaced by Expressjet. Now Mesa is recalling and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't re-rise from tne ashes when the scope provisions kick in to fly more large RJ's. Please committ suicide with your FFD agreement. Perhaps the sooner your metrics get worse (not sure how that could be) UA can replace you. Not a mainline pilots fault that you don't understand that outsourced services are re-bid all the time. You are not doing yourself any favors by making your company less efficient.

4. If you decided to try to disrupt the operation by delaying flights. How would anyone know?

Finally I ageee the pass changes stink. However we too as mainline employees have had pass changed over the years. This world is full of changes. If you do not like the change YOU need to address it with YOuR management. Mainline pilots don't negotiate or do your dirty work for you. This issue is between the outsourced company and the mainline management. Should mainline pilots fight the battles for the cleaning crew that is outsourced when UA adjust their contract? Should the cleaners withhold cockpit trash bags in retaliation for mainline pilots not coming to join their cause?

There is a great deal of growing up that needs to take place in regional cockpits. I certainly hope some of this is being vetted in our hiring process. Maybe at least our crews can forward flights and dates where they were bumped or given hard times to the hiring team to weed those candidates from the stacks of applications.

I know I have sent emails and made phone calls regarding one SKYW Capt that I hope never gets a shot at UA. Surprisingly enough the pilot DID have an App in the stack. If he is hired I do hope we get to fly together. That would be great fun, for me at least.

I 100% agree with what you saying its not your issue to fight and you shouldn't say anything. I think people were saying that they wished ALPA the union in which most of us all belong to would try something at least. I don't want or need you to go fight my battles for me you guys have enough as it is. It would just be nice if we could all some how some way have true unified front. I understand I wish this upon myself being a commuter and working for a regional but honestly what other option is there? Mainline wants 121 over all others and a bunch of other factors. So unless outsourcing is erased I am stuck doing this. Yes I know you and all your buddies did it to.

Jumpseat wars no one wins here..We should have respect for one another and do our best to get everyone to where they wanna go..No one wins in a jumpseat war.

Already been done, can't one hope for the best and expect the worse. I don't actually think any UAL guy is gonna give two squirts a **** about it but all I am hoping for is the management at UAL to change whatever route that is.

Come on guys... Threatening "jumpseat retaliation" against other pilots because management chose to implement something we all dislike is stupid.
Threatening to blockout late, hurts the passengers and their travel plans, you wont be sticking it to Smisek either.
The one thing we can do to get around the fee is list for jumpseat or simply travel on other carriers. Hopefully UAL will come up with a remedy same as Delta by charging an annual fee rather than by flight segment. Until then we need to pull up our big boy britches and suck it up.

The dynamics are interesting. If this becomes a huge issue and fight, it takes the focus off basic pay for quite a while.

Well, that is going to take some doing on a 767 going anyplace an RJ driver is trying to get to work, particularly when our role in the process is to evaluate & load numbers which are pushed to us. With CASS, many of the JS already have a seat in back and some don't even stop by :mad: (one of our express guys was in shorts and sandals ... Captain caught him on the way out of the jet and he got a "briefing" :eek: )

The OP advocating a JS war was stupid. Responding in kind is not a whole lot smarter.

Why not just admit these guys have a point? The conditions and benefits of their employment were unilaterally changed without their negotiation or consent. If the same thing happened to us, we would be upset and might try to get it changed, just like they are doing.

a) This sucks and we should all send a loud message to corporate that we don't like it, both UAL and UAX pilots alike.

b) By and large it won't affect most UAX commutes most of the time.

UA has unlimited jumpseat provisions in the pilot contract.

As long as there is no UAL commuter ahead of you on a full flight, the commuting UAX pilot simply says: "Please may I use the jumpseat?" and viola you are commuting to work sans charges. So the only time this is a problem is if you run into a moronic UAL guy that takes your jumpseat on a flight that is full except for one last seat in coach or two you have an evil and sadistic gate agent that claims the jumpseat isn't available. Hopefully either of those scenarios will happen rarely.

So let's recap . . .

The service charge does little to affect commuting UAX pilots, but it is horrific for FAs, and squabbling on the internet and denying each other jumpseats is pointless for both UAL pilots and UAX pilots.

Divided we fall; united we conquer.


P.S. I commuted from SFO to JFK and JFK to SFO for a brief period after bankruptcy and the company tried imposing "fees" at that time as well. It didn't last long . . .

Suck it up? Do nothing? You serious?
I'm not saying that there's one perfect solution on what to do but I know it's not nothing.

Minus the fact that UAL gate agents are notorious for hating to do jumpseat listings at the gate despite the fact that's the only method in existence. We used to be able to list online but that was taken away too for some reason, despite the fact all it did was save the gate agents time.

Also there is a limit on WebJump as to how many jumpseaters can be listed for a flight. So even if there are 100 open seats on the flight, it won't let the gate agent list more than X number (whatever the number is) of jumpseaters.

Lastly, how many times have you rushed for a commute. Or not even had to rush but known you land and have 45 minutes but because you're listed you you'll make it because your nonrev listing has cleared and there is a boarding pass waiting for you at the gate. Now what? Pay the $20 for a nonrev listing I guess since you're not going to find many gate agents willing to spend 3-4 minutes doing a listing for you while they're boarding Group 5. List for the jumpseat earlier in the day? WebJump won't let you do it more than 2 hours in advance.

So I'd venture to say this policy - if its true - does in fact effect UA Express guys greatly.

No, I am not saying do nothing... Call your ALPA rep, talk to the chief, travel dept ect.... But retaliating against UAL pilots for something they had no say in is just silly.
Blocking out late ect... Hurts the company you work for not UAL. If the performance numbers suck enough Gojetzzz is always there to under bid ya.
I hope this doesn't become the norm, and yes this new fee does hurt my commute as well. But I'll do what's in my power to help change it, already written emails ect.., but ultimately it's UALs decision and we all have to suck it up...

Maybe all UAX pilot's should take a few days off to get their blood pressure down.

Preferably the same few days...

Seriously do nothing? Thank you for accelerating the race to the bottom! I am in no way advocating pilots vs plots and petty bickering over jump seats. However, to say just suck it up and do nothing? That is just plan lazy and ignorant. :mad:

Reference my post 3 lines down

good post