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Originally Posted by Sunvox
(Post 1387985)
a) This sucks and we should all send a loud message to corporate that we don't like it, both UAL and UAX pilots alike.
b) By and large it won't affect most UAX commutes most of the time. UA has unlimited jumpseat provisions in the pilot contract. P.S. I commuted from SFO to JFK and JFK to SFO for a brief period after bankruptcy and the company tried imposing "fees" at that time as well. It didn't last long . . . So for an offline guy it could suck. UAL pilot doesn't want to pay to ride, and that's fine, so he OMC's. Offline pilot shows up for an OMC and gets denied because that single JS 757 with 30-40-50 open seats already has an OMC. It was a minority of the time that a CA would waive it, that's assuming the offline pilot could ACTUALLY get past the agent and down to the cockpit to talk to the CA. Thank god it went unlimited. |
Originally Posted by xjtguy
(Post 1388014)
I remember that. However, there was brief period of time when UAL STILL had the "only as many JS riders allowed as seats installed" that almost every other legacy did at the time.
So for an offline guy it could suck. UAL pilot doesn't want to pay to ride, and that's fine, so he OMC's. Offline pilot shows up for an OMC and gets denied because that single JS 757 with 30-40-50 open seats already has an OMC. It was a minority of the time that a CA would waive it, that's assuming the offline pilot could ACTUALLY get past the agent and down to the cockpit to talk to the CA. Thank god it went unlimited. |
Originally Posted by highflyer0685
(Post 1387948)
wouldn't brag about working for Republic :D
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UAL knows the commuters will pay it. Will the (for example) ORD based person who lives in the Albany,NY area move? No. Are they going to drive to ORD? NO. They will P&M, but will pony up the loot. Petty on UAL,yes. Furloughing to farm out to regional carriers only to have the furloughees work for the very mainline-regional that put them on the street confirms their confidence in their decisions. They would save money and make more revenue by flying the most efficient size aircraft and staffing it appropriately. CRJ's that are plagued with maintainance and W&B issues into a filthy ORD gate,do not seem to be the way to go IMO.
It Just Doesn't Matter! - Meatballs (6/9) Movie CLIP (1979) HD - YouTube |
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
Great, you can use those benefits to ride someone else as I won't let you Jumpseat on my mainline plane either. We will be "wt restricted' also just like every other RJ out there that I have ever tried to Jumpseat on. In fact we may have too much cargo to fill the empties in the cabin except for our own non-revs. Just like the "we don't have ballast or its too small up here for a jumpseater in the cockpit of the RJ". You get to watch us depart just like we watch you.
Hope that doesn't affect you on your way home either. That would be terrible. Maybe some of that string of express pilots I see from ORD to DEN or MCO will have to use all their extra pass benefits to get home. That is if they can find a mainline carrier pilot group they haven't pi$$ed off yet to carry them.
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
Here are my thoughts.
1. No one makes you commute. That means NO ONE. It is a choice and it has been part of the industry for a long time. If you didn't understand the possibile plus and minuses of commuting when you started that is not a mainline pilots fault.
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
2. Your base has been changed or closed. Again not a mainline pilots fault. You don't work for the mainline. You company bids for flying from every carrier in the US. You need to address you base concerns with your company. They bid the flying and move the basses. Again, not a mainline pilots fault.
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
3. Waste fuel. Good one. The majors never shuffle the deck with new carriers to replace the poor performing ones. Look at Mesa. They performed poorly and were replaced by Expressjet. Now Mesa is recalling and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't re-rise from tne ashes when the scope provisions kick in to fly more large RJ's. Please committ suicide with your FFD agreement. Perhaps the sooner your metrics get worse (not sure how that could be) UA can replace you. Not a mainline pilots fault that you don't understand that outsourced services are re-bid all the time. You are not doing yourself any favors by making your company less efficient.
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
4. If you decided to try to disrupt the operation by delaying flights. How would anyone know?
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
Finally I ageee the pass changes stink. However we too as mainline employees have had pass changed over the years. This world is full of changes. If you do not like the change YOU need to address it with YOuR management. Mainline pilots don't negotiate or do your dirty work for you. This issue is between the outsourced company and the mainline management. Should mainline pilots fight the battles for the cleaning crew that is outsourced when UA adjust their contract? Should the cleaners withhold cockpit trash bags in retaliation for mainline pilots not coming to join their cause?
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
There is a great deal of growing up that needs to take place in regional cockpits. I certainly hope some of this is being vetted in our hiring process. Maybe at least our crews can forward flights and dates where they were bumped or given hard times to the hiring team to weed those candidates from the stacks of applications.
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1387961)
I know I have sent emails and made phone calls regarding one SKYW Capt that I hope never gets a shot at UA. Surprisingly enough the pilot DID have an App in the stack. If he is hired I do hope we get to fly together. That would be great fun, for me at least.
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1387978)
Why not just admit these guys have a point? The conditions and benefits of their employment were unilaterally changed without their negotiation or consent. If the same thing happened to us, we would be upset and might try to get it changed, just like they are doing. |
Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1387999)
No, I am not saying do nothing... Call your ALPA rep, talk to the chief, travel dept ect.... But retaliating against UAL pilots for something they had no say in is just silly.
Blocking out late ect... Hurts the company you work for not UAL. If the performance numbers suck enough Gojetzzz is always there to under bid ya. I hope this doesn't become the norm, and yes this new fee does hurt my commute as well. But I'll do what's in my power to help change it, already written emails ect.., but ultimately it's UALs decision and we all have to suck it up... |
Originally Posted by pitch mode
(Post 1388043)
Furloughing to farm out to regional carriers only to have the furloughees work for the very mainline-regional that put them on the street confirms their confidence in their decisions.
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1388049)
Glad you get it. I'm sorry if their guys get hurt in the process, but our management has told us they are powerless to change this. Do you have any better suggestions to get the attention of the decision makers at UAL and motivate them to fix it?
Could a NMB complaint be made that this is a unilateral change in pay and working conditions and thus a violation of status quo? Might be a reach, but postage is cheap. I'd think ALPA would be the pilots' friend on this one. Resolution by acclimation at the next LEC meeting if the MEC does not find sufficient motivation on its own? It has been my experience (although I do not understand how it works) that quite a few express employees get positive space when flights get tight at Delta. At the end of the day management does have an interest in seeing that pilots end up at the same place their airplane is. As stated in an earlier post, park an RJ on a first flight and the phone is going to start ringing somewhere. With network and marketing playing musical RJ's every single month, no one can realistically expect a family to move around the country to keep up. Often these are very temporary assignments. No other business (aside from migrant farm workers) expects this of their employees. This is one area where I hope the new ATP rules will increase the value of the pilot to their employer. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1388053)
Again, our management repeatedly says they have no control over passes and washes their hands of it. Now what?
I suspect your management is only telling you they can't do anything. In most respects they are not willing to DO anything. And in return the lever you guys are choosing to employ is to kick off the UAL pilots and cost yourselves money and sabotage the operation. Talk about misguided agression. |
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1388060)
If your management is saying they have NO control and they negotiate THE FFD contract with UAL, what makes you guys think denying UAL pilots the jumpseat will the arm of UAL management?
I suspect your management is only telling you they can't do anything. In most respects they are not willing to DO anything. And in return the lever you guys are choosing to employ is to kick off the UAL pilots and cost yourselves money and sabotage the operation. Talk about misguided agression. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1388059)
I've got nothing that you would not have already thought of.
Could a NMB complaint be made that this is a unilateral change in pay and working conditions and thus a violation of status quo? Might be a reach, but postage is cheap. I'd think ALPA would be the pilots' friend on this one. Resolution by acclimation at the next LEC meeting if the MEC does not find sufficient motivation on its own?
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1388059)
It has been my experience (although I do not understand how it works) that quite a few express employees get positive space when flights get tight at Delta. At the end of the day management does have an interest in seeing that pilots end up at the same place their airplane is. As stated in an earlier post, park an RJ on a first flight and the phone is going to start ringing somewhere.
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1388059)
With network and marketing playing musical RJ's every single month, no one can realistically expect a family to move around the country to keep up. Often these are very temporary assignments. No other business (aside from migrant farm workers) expects this of their employees. This is one area where I hope the new ATP rules will increase the value of the pilot to their employer.
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And you'll have to explain to your chief pilot why you claimed your plane was weight restricted when it actually wasn't. I never have that problem. I don't have to fake it. But you go ahead and do your worst tough guy. I'll just take Delta. Not the mainline pilots fault, but yes mainline management's fault. They create startup regional carriers who work for peanuts in order to make me "compete" with them in order to lower their costs (and pay you better bonuses). So my company has to re-bid every few years and all the bases get realigned. So sorry I don't work for mainline. I really enjoyed the extra 5 years I've spent at a regional while you greedy boomers rewarded yourselves with 5 extra years at the top of the pay scales. My regional has 5-15 year contracts. Not going away any time soon. Predictably, you have no idea what you're talking about. And wasting fuel affects your management, and YOUR profit sharing. Saving fuel gets me nothing. Plus, how short sighted of you to hope I get replaced with my contract and benefits near the top of the regional industry. My replacement will work for half what I make, and put more downward pressure on your contract. Duh. Ask the DOT complaint department. I read in the paper that they're very familiar with your airline. There's a great deal of retiring that needs to happen in your cockpits. Go ahead and blackball all of us. In a few years anyone with a pulse will get a class date after you geezers medical out and no one else wants this job Do whatever you want Tony C, and I will am sure the UAL pilots will do whatever we want in retaliation if you decide you are punishing our pilots for your problems. |
And here I thought we were making progress... guess you just don't get it and are too selfish to care.
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1388045)
My regional has 5-15 year contracts. Not going away any time soon.
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Originally Posted by 200Driver
(Post 1388123)
Really...lmao...do you have any understanding of how contracts work or torts law? I wouldn't make any life decisions based on those contracts, I will just leave it at that. :cool:
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I just hope that pilots will still get to list as a jumpseat to get to work even with seats open in the back and not have to pay this ridiculous sum of money. I'm hoping UA won't come up with some slick way to force guys jumpseating to still pay. If I worked 4 4 day trips a month back and forth I would pay almost 2000 dollars a year just to commute. Even for CA's, that's a lot of money. I don't see how UA went from 50-100 dollars a year to this scale. I wouldn't deny any UA pilots the jumpseat over this. As it has been said, they're not coming up with the policies. But any UA jumpseat I'm on or any UA pilot that jumpseats on me will definitely hear from me about this. Just maybe some of them will do something about it. But probably not.
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Guys...
If you're paying $80-$160 a month in segment fees to get to/from work, you can EASILY recoup that money by slowing down, double-checking yourself, and adding an extra hour of credit per week to your schedule. Don't forget to taxi with both engines running and the APU up and running. |
I don't even commute on UAL, and very rarely non rev on them If that is the case we UAL pilots demand you and your pilot group force your management provide passes for UA pilots on all those other carriers. You are getting a benefit of passes that are not provided to us. I suppose we as UAL pilots could demand your company provide us with those pass benefits, but they would tell us their hands are tied. Therefore we should demand that you UAX pilots achieve the same level of pass benefits for UAL pilots that you have on other carriers. Until that time expect a jumpseat war <tic> Does that make sense to you? It must with the logic you are applying to the the current UA pass charge system changes.. |
This is pointless. We have gotten to the point where both of us want to "win" the argument, and have totally lost sight of the issue.
Maybe we're just pi$sed and venting. Let's face it, a jumpseat war isn't going to happen, and probably wouldn't even solve the problem. What will solve the problem is when UAX employees don't make it to work and UAL flights get canceled. And people leave UAX carriers in droves and no one replaces them. Mainline flights go half empty. Passengers complain more. We all know some level of management reads these forums. Taxing your lowest paid contractors to fill a budget gap is the pettiest, most short sighted cost savings approach I've ever seen. It borders on pure evil. Fix it. |
Originally Posted by Saabs
(Post 1387343)
I laugh when pinnacle people think they are gonna get better benefits like comair had since we are now owned by delta...
Mesaba/Compass got better, Comair got worse. |
Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1388091)
Please go take Delta. They are ready when you are..... As to the jumpseat being weight restricted you have about as much information regarding whether or not we are at the stops as you I would trying to get on that RJ with the mysterious ballast / CG issue. So if you guys want a jumpseat war I am ready to play. If I am short O2 for the observer or perhaps those belts on the jumpseat look frayed it may mean the cockpit seat is unusable.
That is a byproduct of the outsourced industry. If you have ever seen a flight from South Florida to one of the UA hubs you will see hundreds of UA pilots that were once base in MIA. They commute because UA closed their domicile their after 9/11. Should the MIA commuters deny UAX jumpseaters because UA closed their base? Cry me a river. All of us were hurt by 65 that were not already B777 or B400 Captains. During the past 5 years our ALPA group gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay COBRA for our furloughed pilots (rightfully so). I have supported and desire to help those furloughed from my company, while they were being replaced by guys in RJ's. Didn't Pinnacle have long term contract with DL? Let's play this out a little farther. You trash your operation and the UAL replaces you with the next lowest bidder, putting downward pressure on the RJ rates. So now your company doesn't have the UA contract and it can't get a contract elsewhere to cover that seat you are sitting in when the music stops. Now you are on the street looking for a job. Guess who is hiring? That company that took your contract and you can start over at first year wages at the new company....Ever see the movie called Go Jet? Slashing RJ wages doesn't hurt our mainline bargaining power. We have our own rates for 90 seaters and a contract that wil hopefully be protected. I think our pilot group will man up and hold the line when it comes to letting the camel any farther into the tent. I suspect a majority of those complaints are from passengers that missed their connections after being delayed from a UAX flight. UAX handles at least 50% of our passengers during their travels according to the latest propaganda. I have friends that are 1K's on UAL and they drive from SMF to SFO to avoid the CF that is UAX. Retiring is the last step for me. I still have several years so it will be awhile. However, you still have to get the get an interview, pass the interview and then start your job. I wouldn't black ball all of you. I am not willing to paint all of you with the same brush. However, people that decide to misplace their agression against the UA pilots like yourself don't belong in a UAL cockpit. You are effectively hurting the group you want to work with. In fact how would you feel if you got that UA job, on probation and you are trying to get to work only be denied a jumpseat for a war declared by your former employer? You miss your trip, which I don't recommend you doing on probation. How would that make you feel? Do whatever you want Tony C, and I will am sure the UAL pilots will do whatever we want in retaliation if you decide you are punishing our pilots for your problems. A few NYC guys decided to go off the reservation and just start denying JetBlue pilots the JS. You know, because those oh so high and mighty professional legacy pilots were so smart they determined that it was JetBlue pilots fault that they UAL pilots were in the position they were in. Nevermind the FACT that JetBlue was employing a ton of furloughed legacy pilots. Nevermind the FACT that JetBlue had an EXTREMELY liberal JS policy that allowed A LOT of UAL commuters (to include FAs) from places like Florida to get to JFK. These UAL guys thought they were "gonna teach JetBlue a lesson". Where the UAL JS chair got about one report a month system wide about a denial, he started getting 3-4 a month just from JetBlue ALONE. The UAL JS comittee had to send out an email telling theor own guys to knock it the hell off. Could you imagine if JB responded in kind? Could you imagine how many UAL pilots and FA's WOULDN'T be getting to work? I'll bet these SAME UAL pilots commuted on JB and were as nice as could be when asking for a ride. So yeah, doesn't matter if its the mainline or UAX side. Be a "professional" and deny the Jumpseat because "that'll teach em". Keep all the fighting amongst the pilots and derail attention from management's imcompetence. Works EVERY time. Just keeps alive the saying that pilots are their own worst enemies. Have at it, see how good it works, knock yourself out fellas...... Like I said a few posts back. It's just a bunch of insecure needle-dikced unprofessional ignorant pilots talking tough on an internet message board. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 1388130)
First of all, yes, I do. Second of all, who's making life decisions? I plan to get out of here first opportunity I get, for precisely reasons like this. I don't even commute on UAL, and very rarely non rev on them, so really I have no dog in this fight, yet I fight for those that depend on it. What are you doing to solve the problem?
I agree 100% with you, I try to fight for the industry from top to bottom even if I have no dog in the fight. As far as this UAL / UAX BS there isn't much we can do. I have contacted a few people both mainline and within my company. Apparently no one wants to fight this yet... |
Originally Posted by beech1980
(Post 1386930)
Why are people still willing to take a job that pays 20k a year? It makes no sense...
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Originally Posted by JohnnyG
(Post 1388250)
It's better than no job!
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How I love it when mainline pilots talk down "regional" guys blaming them for the state of this industry...
Dear sir, do I need to remind you, you and only you created, voted this, sorry @ss industry into existence ? Sir, when you voted for this crap we now call reality I was in high school.. Nor did the then tprop captains at regionals ever get asked for their opinions. Thanks to your wonderful selfish voting behavior, those tprop captains are now year 15 captains on 70 and 90-seaters making 6 figures and I'm looking at a 6-7 year upgrade. Thank you sir! So thank you dear grandpa that I get to fly regional jets for 15 years now instead of turboprops for 5.. And you better believe it that in the meantime I will go out of my way to make this a great place to work. Meanwhile I'm still in my 20s, on my 3rd airline, own a nice home, enjoy my QOL (oh no I didn't!) and our FA's are hot. Which is a good thing because ill be looking at them for at least another 5 years. Never a reality I asked for, just living in a bubble you and only you created. Trying to make the best out of it. Meanwhile all our fo's are leaving for emirates and other places which after you retire hopefully will mean a actual shortage of ATPs allowing us to hopefully restore some of the damage done by you and yours. Back to you. In other news: I will never turn down your JS request. Not the place and time to make a point. Enjoy flying on a product you created and you are personally responsible for. Welcome aboard. |
How I love it when mainline pilots talk down "regional" guys blaming them for the state of this industry... Sir, when you voted for this crap we now call reality I was in high school.. Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you into this career path? Hot FA's? Good for you. Now take that to the bank and see what they give for that novelty. |
Fight a reality you voted for ? Stand side by side the same people who created this mess ? Thanks again captain example.
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Originally Posted by 303flyboy
(Post 1388336)
Fight a reality you voted for ? Stand side by side the same people who created this mess ? Thanks again captain example.
Actually lad I did not get a vote for RJ's. My MEC voted and since you are a SKYW pilot you may be unfamiliar with how the union is set up. You work for a pilot group that refuses to join ALPA yet you want mainline ALPA pilots to support you. You can blame me for your work conditions as I really don't care. I do hold a special place for several of your brethren at SKYW for some jumpseat antics over the years. You've a long time to go in this industry. I certainly am happy to be on the latter half than in your postion. |
Actually my work conditions are pretty good for a "regional" I take pride in my work, which has a direct affect on united's bottom line. (Oh no I just said online I take pride in my work). I enjoy living in base and making the best out of it. (Omg i just said im pretty happy overall) There are so much more important things in life then this industry.
I'm just sad with the state of this industry with 36 more years till retirement. I have met a couple of UAL guys who where absolutely nothing short of amazing guys, going completely out of their way to get me on, reminding me what this industry should look like. Enjoy retirement. Slightly jealous.. |
Originally Posted by 303flyboy
(Post 1388336)
Fight a reality you voted for ? Stand side by side the same people who created this mess ? Thanks again captain example.
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Originally Posted by 303flyboy
(Post 1388336)
Fight a reality you voted for ? Stand side by side the same people who created this mess ? Thanks again captain example.
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Originally Posted by Lambourne
(Post 1388356)
Actually lad I did not get a vote for RJ's. My MEC voted and since you are a SKYW pilot you may be unfamiliar with how the union is set up. You work for a pilot group that refuses to join ALPA yet you want mainline ALPA pilots to support you.
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Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1388422)
Dude, just stop... You're making yourself seem like a spikey haired backpack wearing kid.
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There are a lot of us in the regionals that are just trying to get our time and get out. I'm in my 30s, 4 year degree, and had 135 and corporate flying experience before I came to this side. Why a regional? Because the economy has been terrible the past few years, and quite honestly I didn't have a lot of other options. That being said, I do my best to be as professional as possible. Most of us do, but of course there is always that 5% that make us look like idiots (as with any other pilot group and profession).
I am very disappointed with this proposed policy for Express carriers, but it is what it is. I certainly don't blame any of the pilot groups, and if anything it provides even more motivation to get the heck out of here ASAP. |
Originally Posted by bernouli
(Post 1388432)
..........
But he sure cried foul when his airline's flying in the 303 area code was reduced and UAL shifted flying to other UAX carriers. |
Originally Posted by N2Core
(Post 1388273)
This type of thinking could possibly do us in. There are jobs to be had, just not flying.
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Originally Posted by thevagabond
(Post 1388439)
Well, I'm curious N2. Did you leave aviation because of low paying entry level jobs? Or do you just expect others to do what you "believe" to be right?
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Well this just got depressing.
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So wait is this just main line flights or any United flight regardless of who is operating
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