no kidding. I'm about to eat the barrel. Will someone please post something about unicorns and rainbows?

Done

http://i.imgur.com/m8ZlU5v.jpg

you are a god. Thank you.

Meh, fingers are too weird. Do not want.

I did not notice any fingers.

I think that my girlfriend wore that to Halloween.

Hey, didn't you have to work on Halloween? :confused:

Just to point out a little detail...

Since Delta pwns Pinnacle, the Pinnacle "contract" is only good for 60 days at a time. That's how much notice Delta will give the Pinnacle employees if they decide to "shut 'r down" as they did with Comair.

This has become more of a Regional vs Regional, Legacy vs Regional, old timer vs new guy and of course Alpa vs anti union conversation...as it probably always will be in every new thread. In the meantime, UAL stock goes up 2% and management calls screwing us over a little more a success.

Anyone hear anything different or have any productive ideas on how to fight this?

Dear United Mainline,

We aren't willing to tak with our feet, except a handful, so therefore we will just show up to work tomorrow like nothing has happened.

Nail firmly and unequivocally struck upon it's head...

Well, of course not. there's no way to vote with your feet when there's nowhere else to go with them.

Sadly, most of us still need to remain employed, so we have to act within the bounds of not ruining our careers.

and management knows this!

But just how much is to much? What if your pay was cut from 44/hr as FO down to 32/hr? Still show up to work? How about cut to 22/hr? Now? There needs to be a fine line. You can talk with your feet, there are plenty of corporate opportunities, Spirit/Virgin/JetBlue/US Air/United hiring, and jobs outside aviation.

You said it. Divide and conquer works well. Solutions? Whatever it is, there needs to be unity. With so many regionals providing feed for United, plus some are ALPA, some not---good luck.

Wish there was but there is not much unity on anything at ual.

The TSA guys tried unity. Now we're told that we shouldn't be angry about getting screwed for it, and that the airline that came of it is no different than we are.

With lessons like that, it's no wonder it doesn't work now.

Yes, we need UNITY punched across his forehead.

By this logic, IPA pilots should acquiesce to UPS assaults on the CBA since there is nowhere for them to go; anywhere else would be a giant step backward. But we all know IPA pilots are best compensated on the planet. And the total number of UPS/IPA grievances dwarfs that of any other airline relationship.

I'm not throwing stones. I have tremendous empathy for guys trying to make it to the "Big Time." But what is the Big Time anymore? UPS? FEDEX? The measurable and SIGNIFICANT heavy lifting the IPA continues, and WILL continue to do in raising the bar for the ENTIRE aviation World ought to serve as an example to other professional pilot organizations; however, none of us should also escape the obvious conclusion that the reason IPA guys seem to be the envy of some, is because the PAX industry has lost so much ground, and retreated BACKWARD.

My Goodness, are any of you old enough to remember being a major airline pilot in the years prior to 911? NO ONE wanted to fly for FEDEX or UPS. Everyone was leaving in droves for a better life at the "Majors" for a "real" airline job.

P.S. My Goodness, do any of you remember pre-Deregulation, c. 1977? Back when the DoT determined pilots wages, many 727 FOs were making $800K per year (adjusted).

But with Deregulation, The Man surrendered some power back to The People. This makes it then incumbent on The People to collectively determine an acceptable level of compensation for their service, then collectively DEMAND it. At some point, we all need to be willing to hold our middle finger up to management, and ACTUALLY collectively not show up for work.

I realize it's a different risk matrix for an IPA pilot, knowing he'll have a company to come back to after the strike, because the company made Billion$. I endured 5 years of crap pay, instructing and cancelled checks, before getting into the USAF Reserve, which was the best thing that ever happened to me. I don't know if I'd have the stomach these days to endure 15 years at a Regional, just for the chance to make it somewhere else. The year I got hired at UPS, the average new-hire age was 39. They hired 1% of the WELL-QUALIFIED guys who applied. Those are LONG odds, by anyones's standard. Guys almost have a better chance playing 3rd Base for the Yankees.

The point is, we all need to make where we are working NOW a better place. If people rely on daydreams about a better life at Airline B, to help slog them through the day at Airline A, most will be disappointed. If the grass is greener next door, get his advice on how to make your grass just as green--then the whole neighborhood looks good.

What are you flying right now? I've never had a turbine job or a turbine job offer.

........nevermind

Agreed, but how do you suggest we do this? Just quitting isn't going to help, unless it's done en-masse. What do you suggest for the current situation that this thread is created for?

What are the non rev pass travel beenies at AA, DAL, and USAir?

Thanks..
Motch

PS> Back in the day (07 and below), I thought I remember paying $50 a year for USAir benefits (on mainline) and a segment fee on American...

It's 50 a year for all employees at DL.

That's what it was for UA. But apparently this somehow creates a 7 million dollar loss based on something? Fuel? I don't know.

And $212/year for employees of Delta Connection. To go behind retired mainline employees and their kids while trying to get to work :(

Per employee?

This will really burn your butt. It's only $50 for Delta benefits at G7.

And at cpz

$50 at pinnacle too.

$50 per enrolled person, up to a max of $212 (including tax) at ASA.

Does AA already charge per segment fee? Where is UA getting the crap from? I really hope there's a lot of push back against this but I won't hold my breath.

That's the key: En-masse.

One of the reasons the IPA has been so successful in raising the bar higher than any other group on the planet, is because of our unified, vitriolic misgivings toward management.

Three years after the furlough, we still have near 100% support of the CBA approved Open Time Ban when directed by our EB.

We always have near 100% support of the No Waivers/No Favors Policy.

The number of grievances the IPA files against the Company exponentially exceeds that of any other pilot group. Because we push back, HARD.

We have 100% support of ANY other pilot group in a strike or job action, to include refusing commercial deadheads on their carriers.

We had 100% IPA walkout in support of the last Teamsters strike.

We will have 100% walkout of any future strike. We only have about five dbags with scab blood in the IPA. Somehow they snuck through the cracks. They shall remain closely monitored.

The foregoing are some of the legal en-masse actions that can be openly discussed without any IPA guys getting in trouble.

I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, because I don't know much, especially about the finer points of the current PAX industry.

Historically speaking, I've heard of some other pilot groups exercising job actions that are vaguely legal, but nearly impossible to source and prove:

These might include things like hyper-concern for MX issues. Hyper-concern for anything. No early push-back. Slow taxi. Sick-outs. Everyone switching their bid to different equipment.

But it would be illegal for me to suggest you guys do those things.

Did I just say that out loud?

Stay united and strong.

Carrying non revs cost the company exactly the same as carrying a revenue passenger. You have to size your infrastructure to the total number of passengers carried revenue or non revenue. Pass riding is simply a cost benefit like any other benefit including health care. Management always wants more money from employees so they chip away at issues like this that they think they can sneak by easier then a pay cut. They also hope that by charging more you will non rev less and save them money.

If you think non revenue travel is expensive now wait until the government starts taxing all non revenue travel at imputed value. They have tried many times in the past and ALPA has been able to beat it back. As the industry grows more fragmented and ALPA loses more of its power base we will lose the tax issue on non revenue travel. Sadly none of the other unions are willing to assist this and other fights financially. They talk big but don't write checks. Its only a matter of time until this tax slips through.

I respect the tenacity of the IPA in standing up for pilots. But, as far as regional carriers go, I'll steal a line from from Japanese culture; "The nail that sticks up must be hammered down."

So whatever pilot group strikes back against this move by United mainline will be surely threatened with shuffling their flying and jobs to other regionals. When that happens, the other regionals will start salivating at the thought of picking up additional flying, and forget about this pay to commute scheme. The regional whipsaw is a vicious circle.

How do we end the vicious circle? Limit pilot supply? Merge the regionals? Get flying taken back to mainline? I don't know how the last two would be achieved.

Right. Strikes and job actions only have teeth if the recipient organization can be forced into a captive relationship. If they have the authority to shift contracts around, or replace you with scabs, then obviously you have less leverage.

It's different for an IPA pilot than the RJ pilot because replacing us all would be legally and financially challenging for UPS. They don't have the same kind of "shell game" Scope authority to pit one group against another.

A National Seniority List would never work, as has been beaten to death in other threads. But perhaps a National Guild would work. A Guild is an organization of multiple independent unions. All unions in the Guild would then agree on minimum acceptable levels of compensation industry wide. There would be less advantage or gain then for UAL to switch out contracts for a diffent feeder service.

This. People can kick and scream all they want about it but what can you really do? Deny jumpseats? All that does is screw other commuters over and you can bet that will be remembered if you ever try to move over to United. Slow the airline down and burn more fuel/ruin on time performance? Every contract has some kind of performance incentive and can easily be terminated.

The options are pay the fee or stay home. All one can do is hope that they don't switch to the Delta style system where if there is a seat in the back you still have to pay even if you are jumpseating(at DL it is a yearly fee.... for now). Just one of the many reasons to keep those resumes updated. Again there is no leverage at the regional level. There was a blood bath amongst the DL regionals and it looks the same for united(overall reduction of airframes).

DL has a $50/year admin fee to be in the system. Other than that its free, coach or first, jumpseat or a regular passenger seat, except cases of international taxes of course.

Come on david you have delta guys like gloopy here that will always help you out. lol,

This. I think DL has by far the best nonrev system. JFK-NRT round trip in business is $37.50 per person....

Comair was always 50 bucks annually per employee (whole family). Comair Academy was the same back in 2001-2003.