SAPA 'Negotiations' Update
07-03-2013 | 04:49 PM
#121
Rollin'
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 829
Likes: 0
From: AA Airbus
We don't need to create movement with concessions, we have an epic retirement swing coming to do that, as well as rest rules (which for many will cause a net loss in pay). Do you really think management just ordered all of those Ejets and MRJs knowing that the only way they could find a home for them would be if the pilots saved them 6 mil a year by not having pay increase with inflation. HA! I would really like to see that.
"Well we are a bunch of crack business execs, but we couldn't take order of any of these new jets because the pilots were insistent that they be payed the same! We had put all of our chips on them taking cuts and we made absolutely no plans in the event they didn't. Too bad too, with only a $2hr cut short of profitability. I guess we're doomed, start filing for BK!" -said no SkyWest exec ever!
"Well we are a bunch of crack business execs, but we couldn't take order of any of these new jets because the pilots were insistent that they be payed the same! We had put all of our chips on them taking cuts and we made absolutely no plans in the event they didn't. Too bad too, with only a $2hr cut short of profitability. I guess we're doomed, start filing for BK!" -said no SkyWest exec ever!
07-04-2013 | 01:44 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 0
. . . If you think differently then you’re a conspiracy theorist with his head up his ass. Also [you're] ignorant. . . . Go ahead and use the typical forum board BS rhetoric about how I’m drinking Kool-Aid or must be Mgmt.
. . . sit on the boards and armchair quarterback Mgmt. . . . love to hate and as was said before, haters are always going to hate and misery loves company.
. . . sit on the boards and armchair quarterback Mgmt. . . . love to hate and as was said before, haters are always going to hate and misery loves company.
Me too.
By your own admission, JA:
- treats his employees of his various companies differently
- favors one company
- whipsaws his pilots and his companies against each other
- has employees of one company manage another
- runs multiple managements simultaneously to keep the operations separate, despite the duplication costs
I'm not saying Jerry Atkins is as bad as Frank Lorenzo or Jonathan Ornstein, but the similarities go beyond them simply all being airline CEO's.
---
Good luck in your negotiations, SAPA pilots.
07-04-2013 | 05:08 AM
#123
Banned
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 0
Ok . . .
Me too.
By your own admission, JA:
I'm not saying Jerry Atkins is as bad as Frank Lorenzo or Jonathan Ornstein, but the similarities go beyond them simply all being airline CEO's.
“There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure the truth.” - Maya Angelou
---
Good luck in your negotiations, SAPA pilots.
Me too.
By your own admission, JA:
- treats his employees of his various companies differently
- favors one company
- whipsaws his pilots and his companies against each other
- has employees of one company manage another
- runs multiple managements simultaneously to keep the operations separate, despite the duplication costs
I'm not saying Jerry Atkins is as bad as Frank Lorenzo or Jonathan Ornstein, but the similarities go beyond them simply all being airline CEO's.
“There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure the truth.” - Maya Angelou
---
Good luck in your negotiations, SAPA pilots.
07-04-2013 | 05:27 AM
#124
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,967
Likes: 0
And history has proven you make far more money and are far happier when there's movement and upgrades. Whereas being the highest paid in the subcontractor industry has proven just the opposite.
Like I posted previously, I would rather make $2 less while improving QOL rules and save my company almost $6M/yr. to help them maintain competitiveness than help run my airline into stagnation due to no new contracts, loss of flying and money which could result in bankruptcy. I just don’t understand why anyone would want the latter. Then again our Mgmt. group unlike any other has proven themselves to be very savvy and mostly trust worthy. They also have proven their dedication to SkyWest continued success and profitability.
In addition I also like profitability bonuses over $2 more per hour so we can share in the good times and not hurt my airline during the bad. But then again I do trust the majority of our Mgmt. group, which doesn't mean I don't hold them accountable and check to make sure they crossed their T's and dotted their I's. And I do call them out when they haven't, but that's an intern issue not meant for these boards mainly due to the haters.
Like I posted previously, I would rather make $2 less while improving QOL rules and save my company almost $6M/yr. to help them maintain competitiveness than help run my airline into stagnation due to no new contracts, loss of flying and money which could result in bankruptcy. I just don’t understand why anyone would want the latter. Then again our Mgmt. group unlike any other has proven themselves to be very savvy and mostly trust worthy. They also have proven their dedication to SkyWest continued success and profitability.
In addition I also like profitability bonuses over $2 more per hour so we can share in the good times and not hurt my airline during the bad. But then again I do trust the majority of our Mgmt. group, which doesn't mean I don't hold them accountable and check to make sure they crossed their T's and dotted their I's. And I do call them out when they haven't, but that's an intern issue not meant for these boards mainly due to the haters.
07-04-2013 | 05:29 AM
#125
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,967
Likes: 0
That's right because XJT was a highly profitable very successful operation prior to SkyWest purchasing them. Even from 06-08 prior to Continentals Count Chocula schooling both SKW and XJT, XJT was a bleeding operation. What was it, 4-5 years dating back to 06 since XJTs turned a profit? Any they still aren’t today, BTW Inc. doesn’t “bill” XJT, they own them. Blame whoever who wish but your mindset is toxic and sad. You must fully understand the other side of the operation to better your own. But you're incapable because of your negative close minded views.
07-04-2013 | 05:38 AM
#126
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,967
Likes: 0
The 2008 XJT/SKW debacle was orchestrated by Count Chocula (Smisek does look like him lol) who, in the end, schooled both sides. In the end SkyWest ate that one but management's propensity to whipsaw is something that goes on everywhere in every industry. Lorenzo wasn't the first to do it and Jerry won't be the last. They all do it! Jerry’s not pillaging XJT (look at ASA for example) unlike Lorenzo did with TIA, CAL and EAL. Nor has Jerry started an alter-ego carrier much like Lorenzo did with NY Air and PeopleExpress. He and Brad are working feverishly to right the ship and make it profitable. He has no intentions of piece mailing you all. Even though you can make comparisons between anything, this Lorenzo comparison is completely and utterly absurd.
07-05-2013 | 10:00 AM
#127
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
I don't have a problem with buying rounds with any Skywest pilot. But don't expect me to say anything different than what I'm saying here.
But what is sounds to me is that you are saying that justifying and rationalizing Skywest's treatment of only a certain employee group just because we have exercised our constitutional right to create a union.
It's one thing for a company like UAL to whipsaw two or more separate independent companies against each other. It's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thing to say that it's okay for a corporation to whipsaw two or more companies they own, control, and operate from the top down! If JA TRULY wanted to make us part of the family, he would have merged all three airlines. He doesn't because he is paid to do what's best for the shareholders only, not about family. That's not to say that the calculation couldn't change where a better business case could be made that what's better for the shareholder is to merge all the airlines. One group being non-union does NOT help that business case and it is perceived that you guys would rather have every other unionized group collectively work and fight for the things that you get for free in order to keep the balance of that equation in keeping you from exercising your constitutional rights.
As for alter ego airlines, like I have said multiple times already, they are smarter than that. That F&H play book has been used enough times now that it would be counter productive. We are not dealing with simple Lorenzo tactics here. There is a whole psychological strategy at play here that your supposed benevolent management pays high consultation/retainer fees. We may be getting out played by them but at least we are aware of what they are trying to do and trying to fight that battle tooth and nail while not being helped out by our fellow brothers, as opposed to being ignorant or conveniently looking the other way while drinking the kool aid.
PS. Doesn't it bother you that while your management is crying poor (which they are purposely overplaying, at best), their expense is partly paying for TWO SEPARATE MANAGEMENT doing exactly the same thing. You want to save them $6 million by not taking a $2/hr raise yet they spend way more than that on duplicating everything it takes to run one airline? This is the kool aid I'm talking about. We here do not tolerate any talk of no pay raises when they spend way more money in order to not give us pay raises. Do you not see what they are doing to both groups?! This on top of all the other issues I've mentioned on this thread starting from the first buyout attempt. So I ask again, are you management or just not aware?
But what is sounds to me is that you are saying that justifying and rationalizing Skywest's treatment of only a certain employee group just because we have exercised our constitutional right to create a union.
It's one thing for a company like UAL to whipsaw two or more separate independent companies against each other. It's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thing to say that it's okay for a corporation to whipsaw two or more companies they own, control, and operate from the top down! If JA TRULY wanted to make us part of the family, he would have merged all three airlines. He doesn't because he is paid to do what's best for the shareholders only, not about family. That's not to say that the calculation couldn't change where a better business case could be made that what's better for the shareholder is to merge all the airlines. One group being non-union does NOT help that business case and it is perceived that you guys would rather have every other unionized group collectively work and fight for the things that you get for free in order to keep the balance of that equation in keeping you from exercising your constitutional rights.
As for alter ego airlines, like I have said multiple times already, they are smarter than that. That F&H play book has been used enough times now that it would be counter productive. We are not dealing with simple Lorenzo tactics here. There is a whole psychological strategy at play here that your supposed benevolent management pays high consultation/retainer fees. We may be getting out played by them but at least we are aware of what they are trying to do and trying to fight that battle tooth and nail while not being helped out by our fellow brothers, as opposed to being ignorant or conveniently looking the other way while drinking the kool aid.
PS. Doesn't it bother you that while your management is crying poor (which they are purposely overplaying, at best), their expense is partly paying for TWO SEPARATE MANAGEMENT doing exactly the same thing. You want to save them $6 million by not taking a $2/hr raise yet they spend way more than that on duplicating everything it takes to run one airline? This is the kool aid I'm talking about. We here do not tolerate any talk of no pay raises when they spend way more money in order to not give us pay raises. Do you not see what they are doing to both groups?! This on top of all the other issues I've mentioned on this thread starting from the first buyout attempt. So I ask again, are you management or just not aware?
We want to be well compensated as well but we understand it's far more important to remain competitive. You can claim that our rates don’t matter but all cost add up and since we are their highest paid labor group our raises add up quicker. This is basic mathematics.
And yes I see no reason to have two of everything, I’ve been saying from the beginning we should all merge. The synergies they would gain would more than double their profits. Plus I’d be able to stop commuting and get my ATL domicile back. But…… maybe their ability to control cost by pitting the two airlines against each other more than makes up for the benefits of a merger or minimalizes them. Or maybe they plan to spin XJT down over time. Or they see the militant union mindset of many XJTers as toxic to SkyWest (just a random statement so don’t take offense and go off, I have several friends who are XJT CAs. They're great guys/gals). My point is we can what if the hell out of this but I guarantee you Jerry has a plan and the plan is for the greater good. No one understands how to survive and evolve in this industry better than Jerry.
Again I’m not Mgmt. but I can see myself moving into the training department of whoever I get on with in order to be home every night.
One tidbit you fail to realize is that a large portion, boarding on a majority, of our pilots have come from union carriers like XJT, ASA, RAH, GoJet, Pinnacle, Eagle, etc. They’ve experienced the union side and they prefer the SkyWest way.
So you are ok as a Skywest pilot letting JA do all this because he knows how to survive and might have a plan to spin down XJT?
Again, is it no wonder why many pilots don't like you, Skywest pilots, and your attitudes when you are willing to justify your CEO's decision in favor of one set of his employees against another set if his employees. It's all rationalized and justified in your minds while others suffer compared to you.
PS. Your welcome, again, for known crew member.
07-05-2013 | 08:29 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
From: Happy
Nevets,
Thank you for KCM. You are welcome for still having a job. Ever wonder what would have happened if SkyWest wouldn't have bought you ?
1500 posts here, 1500 on FI... You truly are the General Lee of the regional forums. Congratulations.
Thank you for KCM. You are welcome for still having a job. Ever wonder what would have happened if SkyWest wouldn't have bought you ?
1500 posts here, 1500 on FI... You truly are the General Lee of the regional forums. Congratulations.
07-05-2013 | 09:01 PM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
From: Happy
Oh yeah? I predict within the next 5 years (probably more like 2 or 3) SkyWest Inc. bankrupts the ExpressJet division, shuts it down, and tells the 500 or so remaining employees they are welcome to apply at SkyWest, without seniority. Then we'll see the Lorenzo come out.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
