Yes. Enough with this untermensch stuff.

I know when that topic is brought up, our management's response was about like this, "that kind of pay negates the reason for having a regional, mainline might as well do the flying.".

Uhhhhh...EXACTLY!!!

 

One myth that needs to be put to bed is that mainline will get flying back. If attrition stays on the same pace and shrinking occurs at the regional level the effects will be the smaller communities served will lose service. This will come in the form of less frequency or the spoke being connected to less hubs. Right now DAL is the only one adding back mainline service to places it used to fly, but they only have about 50 more 717s to come online. Current costs at UAL are going to prevent them from bringing on line 100 seaters. To early to tell what AA is going to do, but they do have a full plate for the next few years.

Do not miss understand this to mean I do not support what is going on. I think its great to see the sector banding together.

 

I agree, but this won't happen in the near term. More likely the pay and benefits will have to go up significantly, but not as much as you think. This is the first time in the history of the regionals that its tough finding qualified pilots. Regional management is dim witted and not visionary for the most part and don't realize this yet. That's why their regional managers. Mainline CEO's aren't much better, but they should get the message first.

 

Yep, there has been talk of DAL getting rid of regional flying and using 717's. Not gonna happen. UAL and AA will be using large RJs into the future. DAL has to also. PX like the EMB 175 and 76 seats is a lot different than 120.

 

Sadly all they have to do is pass out some mainline seniority numbers then get rid of it is some shady bankruptcy filing in a few years

 

If you dig through the math a little, this is not quite that simple. And the brunt of the differences are also not an even burden between CA/FO rates. FOs at regionals are far worse off than FOs at majors using any math. The pay in dollars drops off a cliff, but the pay per aircraft size (pay rate divided by seat) is more messed up than drawing a straight line to make things better. Equivalent longevity XJT captains make more per seat than UAL captains, believe it or not. And don't forget that someone who makes 100K at a major is far better compensated than the same 100K if paid at a regional. The retirement alone increases major compensation 13-17% in B funds and superior 401k matching schemes. Better respect through flight benefits etc...

And newhire pay at UAL is $60/hr. Average narrowbody has say 140 seats there. That's $0.42/seat first year.

50 seat RJ at $0.42 per seat newhire pay is about $21.40. XJT pays $22.

So your linear math is already in place today on current pay scales.

My point is, the solution isn't drawing a straight line if the line goes below an acceptable salary. Regionals must pay MORE per seat to crews if they want to operate RJs. Add fuel consumption per seat plus increased crew costs per seat, and you see why RJs are going away.

 

err

Fuzzy math aside, I agree with your premise, it's all relative.

I think it'd be too much, too soon for mainline to immediately take over all 70+ seat flying...in terms of acquiring the aircraft, pilots, training, amending contracts, etc. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY WISH/HOPE they do. I'd much rather lose my current seat/plane, get furloughed, and fly a 50 seater for 2-3 years at higher pay rates than now, and fly the 70+ seaters at mainline in 3-4 years, than to fly a 70+ seater now for 6-7+ years at regional (even improved regional pay), before moving on.

IMO, it's more likely that the legacies understand the dire circumstances the future of the regional lift is and loosen the rope on these CPA's, allowing regionals to significantly increasing pay and benefits, because that will probably still be cheaper than bringing the flying completely in-house, at least all at once. The regional players will shrink slightly as the ones without the ability to increase pay and benefits fall by the way aside; the ones that remain will have to do just that.

Hopefully whatever happens, regional pilots keep standing strong and demand SIGNIFICANT gains, even to the point of pricing ourselves out of the regional game...keep your eyes out for the forest, not the trees, my friends.

WOW, I disagree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with that disparity. 2.5 times as much for CA top out pay? It should never be that much in any flight deck, IMO.

 

I don’t believe it, if they made more to scale why unions would protect scope
10 year captain Delta Airbus 319 $200 Typical seat 134 = $1.49 per seat PLUS 16 %
10 year captain ASA captain CRJ 9 $84 Typical seat 88 = $.95 per seat
Also what really happens is the local union divides up the pay amongst the group, I doubt SkyWest mgmt would object to taking 10% from senior captains and giving it to junior FO’S. Net some zero for them and free recruiting. Also to your point about the 50 seat jets, they are going away so that linier extrapolation is going away, the vote tanked because of what’s above. The overall payroll deduction, by needing less pilots due to larger planes, should be enough to justify bringing in new planes why should the pilot group buy them with concessions.

 

This is incorrect. It would be correct if regional airlines still only served small communities.

In other words, all small towns are served by regional airlines, but not all regional airline service is between small towns. How many RJ-700's and -900's do 2.5 hour or greater flights? I work for a turboprop operator who does happen to do mostly short flights, but the "regional" nature of RJ's has long since been outgrown.

ORD-ABQ is served by SKW on a 700. What "region" is that? North America? Those are the two largest cities in their respective states. RAH does this one in an E175.
Buy a ticket on Delta for ATL-YYZ? RJ-700.
EWR-OKC on an E145...
ORD-MIA on a 700.
PIT-DEN.... E145.
IAD-IAH.... E145.
ATL-EWR.... E145.
YYZ-IAH.... E145.


These are all major cities, and these are all long flights. If the regionals can't stay on top of their staffing, the Legacy carriers have two options:
- Cut capacity across the board, not just between small towns.
- Add mainline flights in order to maintain capacity. Not grow, just maintain.

There are even short flights between major cities that should go to mainline. SEA-GEG, PHX-ABQ... Sure, a Q400 usually goes between Seattle and Spokane, but Alaska has a 737 do it three times a day. If Southwest can do PHX-ABQ in a Boeing, so can everyone else.

 

Ha ha, good catch