I'm hearing what your saying brother! But unfortunately, your part of the problem! You show me one major airline that pays its FO's 100k to start. You sold your self out and us with the casting of your vote! For your plan to work we need you to step up to the plate and demand wages like that for your new guys at your airline.
I am worth 160k a year but as long as I got guys like you willing to undercut me I'm screwed.
I am worth 160k a year but as long as I got guys like you willing to undercut me I'm screwed.
All it would take would be 30 days of zero regional applicants and money would get thrown into our pockets. 30 days, that's it.
Quote:
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
Originally Posted by gzsg
I started at a regional and am now in my 30th year as a Delta pilot. (Former Northwest)To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
Subscribed.
Where do I send my dues (because it sure as hell isn't ALPA)?
MaxQ
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1. Regional pilots, particularly F.O.'s should make more
2. The dollar values posted by the OP for first year pay is fantasy, and I am hoping he only posted such to make a point
3. The majors don't pay 100/hr to start. Delta's scales for the crj and e -190 never make it to 100/hr in 12 yrs. the 717 doesn't break 100/hr until yr 3
4. the various posters on various threads that state for all regional flying to go to mainline are also posting fantasy. Not only won't it happen, for the benefit of many, we should hope it doesn't. If it happens:
a) there would be a HUGE drop in the number of employed pilots, and others. Smaller aircraft simply will not support, without completely redoing the current airline business model, the increase benefits...retirement,B fund, etc. Don't forget that every single person at the mainline that is involved in these aircraft is also paid more with higher benefits. The flying would simply go away, along with the attached jobs. I won't even get into the reduced service to the countries cities and the resultant economic dominos.
b) From where does anyone think this extra money will be drawn from? Exec pay and bonuses? Hedge fund and other stock holders in the form of reduced profits or stock buyback programs? Reduced dividends? No, they will come out of the lives of the employees who make any airline run. There would be more outsourcing, layoffs, reduced pay/benefits etc. Then we could sit in our cockpits and ***** about how poor the ramp is. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a correlation.
c. For every merged/absorbed/liquidated airline, that means one less airline to apply at. It also means that ,when down to just a few airlines, the so called "plums"can run as fascist an outfit as they like. What are you going to do...go somewhere else? What will you do if those few don't hire you...remember, there will be fewer working pilots.
5. This may be beyond the comprehension of some, but not everyone wants to be number 12,008 on a seniority list. Not everyone marches to the same drummer.
6. I am not convinced that Delta's experiment with the 717 will pan out for them. When our current phase of profits passes, they may find out that the current airline business model doesn't support a smaller aircraft with mainline costs. (ya read it here first,folks!)
While more extreme, it was done at least once before. Southern Airways tried to utilize Metroliners in their fleet. It was a short lived experiment.
7. Efforts would be better expended on some sort of national senority list for a given union to protect the careers of those who will find themselves unemployed. While complicated, with many fences and restrictions built in for safety, a method could be had. Much work was done on it in the 80's. It could be dusted off and revised. The opponents then, as probably today, somehow think that either history won't repeat itself, or somehow they have grasped that brass ring and will never need it. History says that is unlikely.
8. As airlines have consolidated, and would even more if absorb the regionals, we have backed ourselves into a negotiating corner. More and more restrictive labor laws and court precedents have defanged not just ALPA, but pretty much all unions. We can neither strike nor count on support from coworkers in any dispute. I predict it just a matter of time and concessions will be rammed down the throats of even the largest most profitable airlines. There will be nothing done because we can'rt strike. We are generations past those who would engage in civil disobedience and disrupt the operation illegally. (the handful who engaged would be picked off one by one, fired, and depending on the political climate, possibly jailed)
If my dire prediction doesn't come true in that area, then I expect an end run of our protected staus by making an open skies agreement in the USA. Our employers would partner with foreign airlines to fly domestically for much less. Either that, or the country would be just opened up to all airlines and let the chips fall where they may. It fits the world ideology of many who craft policy from the govt,universities and think tanks. (not to mention the media). I consider it a likely result of a Republican Senate/House/White House. It would be preceded by a public campaign highlighting US legacy senior pay and benefits and relating that to the poor abused consumer. The nuanced truth wouldn't have a chance.
Without union leaders who take stands on moral principles and conduct themselves as unionists rather than just short term opportunists, I have a pessimistic view of the future.
Hopefully I am wrong.
2. The dollar values posted by the OP for first year pay is fantasy, and I am hoping he only posted such to make a point
3. The majors don't pay 100/hr to start. Delta's scales for the crj and e -190 never make it to 100/hr in 12 yrs. the 717 doesn't break 100/hr until yr 3
4. the various posters on various threads that state for all regional flying to go to mainline are also posting fantasy. Not only won't it happen, for the benefit of many, we should hope it doesn't. If it happens:
a) there would be a HUGE drop in the number of employed pilots, and others. Smaller aircraft simply will not support, without completely redoing the current airline business model, the increase benefits...retirement,B fund, etc. Don't forget that every single person at the mainline that is involved in these aircraft is also paid more with higher benefits. The flying would simply go away, along with the attached jobs. I won't even get into the reduced service to the countries cities and the resultant economic dominos.
b) From where does anyone think this extra money will be drawn from? Exec pay and bonuses? Hedge fund and other stock holders in the form of reduced profits or stock buyback programs? Reduced dividends? No, they will come out of the lives of the employees who make any airline run. There would be more outsourcing, layoffs, reduced pay/benefits etc. Then we could sit in our cockpits and ***** about how poor the ramp is. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a correlation.
c. For every merged/absorbed/liquidated airline, that means one less airline to apply at. It also means that ,when down to just a few airlines, the so called "plums"can run as fascist an outfit as they like. What are you going to do...go somewhere else? What will you do if those few don't hire you...remember, there will be fewer working pilots.
5. This may be beyond the comprehension of some, but not everyone wants to be number 12,008 on a seniority list. Not everyone marches to the same drummer.
6. I am not convinced that Delta's experiment with the 717 will pan out for them. When our current phase of profits passes, they may find out that the current airline business model doesn't support a smaller aircraft with mainline costs. (ya read it here first,folks!)
While more extreme, it was done at least once before. Southern Airways tried to utilize Metroliners in their fleet. It was a short lived experiment.
7. Efforts would be better expended on some sort of national senority list for a given union to protect the careers of those who will find themselves unemployed. While complicated, with many fences and restrictions built in for safety, a method could be had. Much work was done on it in the 80's. It could be dusted off and revised. The opponents then, as probably today, somehow think that either history won't repeat itself, or somehow they have grasped that brass ring and will never need it. History says that is unlikely.
8. As airlines have consolidated, and would even more if absorb the regionals, we have backed ourselves into a negotiating corner. More and more restrictive labor laws and court precedents have defanged not just ALPA, but pretty much all unions. We can neither strike nor count on support from coworkers in any dispute. I predict it just a matter of time and concessions will be rammed down the throats of even the largest most profitable airlines. There will be nothing done because we can'rt strike. We are generations past those who would engage in civil disobedience and disrupt the operation illegally. (the handful who engaged would be picked off one by one, fired, and depending on the political climate, possibly jailed)
If my dire prediction doesn't come true in that area, then I expect an end run of our protected staus by making an open skies agreement in the USA. Our employers would partner with foreign airlines to fly domestically for much less. Either that, or the country would be just opened up to all airlines and let the chips fall where they may. It fits the world ideology of many who craft policy from the govt,universities and think tanks. (not to mention the media). I consider it a likely result of a Republican Senate/House/White House. It would be preceded by a public campaign highlighting US legacy senior pay and benefits and relating that to the poor abused consumer. The nuanced truth wouldn't have a chance.
Without union leaders who take stands on moral principles and conduct themselves as unionists rather than just short term opportunists, I have a pessimistic view of the future.
Hopefully I am wrong.
MaxQ
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Liked:192 Times in 89 Posts
Quote:
You sir,(or maam) have the reality of the world figured out.Originally Posted by Realtalk
This thread is pointless, because someone will always do it for 90k
Adam Smith pointed out that someone will always do a given job for less 240 years ago. I do not believe human nature has changed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realtalk
This thread is pointless, because ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶o̶n̶e̶ hoars(sp) will always do it ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶9̶0̶k̶ cheaper
Fixed it for ya.
The good news is they know who they are. That they can live with themselves (read: justify it in their own minds) is all you need to know about them, too. Of course, Judas sold out God for a mere 30 pieces of silver. But it turned out Judas actually had a conscious, unlike hoars.
Quote:
Bingo. /threadOriginally Posted by Realtalk
This thread is pointless, because someone will always do it for 90k
Quote:
Thirty years ago there were real 'regional' airlines. Commuter airlines if you will. That is long gone. 'Regional' airlines now fly half of all flights in the US and fly from the Pacific to the Atlantic in a day. Regional my @$$. Scope erosion has been the worst thing that has ever happened in this industry and I'm thankful people are starting to recognize it. Originally Posted by gzsg
I started at a regional and am now in my 30th year as a Delta pilot. (Former Northwest)I do appreciate your sentiments but there should be no such thing is 'regional' flying. Flying is flying and all, or nearly all, should be brought in-house.
Buy a ticket on Delta? It should be flown by Delta pilots. Period.
The idea that 'regional' F/Os should earn $100k is spot on, but it should be paid to people on the same seniority list with career expectations and a career path forward whether it's on a Beech 1900 or a Boeing 747.
Just my opinion. It won't happen. But as long as we accept 'regional' as a lower, separate, level of flying things won't improve. It's been sold to the public and the pilots as 'entry level' but it's nothing of the sort.
Just my thoughts. Change the title of the thread to "$100,000 Minimum First Officer" and I'm on-board. Get rid of the two-class (or even three-class) system we now have ASAP.
