$100,000 Minimum Regional First Officer
08-16-2015 | 07:17 AM
#61
Covfefe
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Likes: 0
[QUOTE=saab2000;1950280]. Buy a ticket on Delta? It should be flown by Delta pilots. Period. /QUOTE]
I bet if enough awareness was made to the public, and a law was introduced saying if you buy a ticket on DAL you have to fly on a DAL operated plane, the public (Colgan families I think especially) would back it.
I think it's sad we can fly United passengers on a united owned and painted ejet, but we aren't good enough to be united pilots.
I bet if enough awareness was made to the public, and a law was introduced saying if you buy a ticket on DAL you have to fly on a DAL operated plane, the public (Colgan families I think especially) would back it.
I think it's sad we can fly United passengers on a united owned and painted ejet, but we aren't good enough to be united pilots.
08-16-2015 | 07:25 AM
#62
:-)
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Likes: 1
I bet if enough awareness was made to the public, and a law was introduced saying if you buy a ticket on DAL you have to fly on a DAL operated plane, the public (Colgan families I think especially) would back it.
I think it's sad we can fly United passengers on a united owned and painted ejet, but we aren't good enough to be united pilots.
I think it's sad we can fly United passengers on a united owned and painted ejet, but we aren't good enough to be united pilots.
I can't even figure out what the Moak group's product actually is. I think management just gives him millions, and he produces advice in a report that management immediately puts in the trash.
08-16-2015 | 07:54 AM
#63
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
From: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
08-16-2015 | 08:00 AM
#64
Covfefe
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Likes: 0
Regionals are safe, and have service scores that are on par with mainline, or in some cases higher than mainline(compass). Passengers don't care, the only people who can help us, are us. We have gotten away from traditional union operating procedure to the current Moakism. Some pilots need to be removed from having an influence on the process.
I can't even figure out what the Moak group's product actually is. I think management just gives him millions, and he produces advice in a report that management immediately puts in the trash.
I can't even figure out what the Moak group's product actually is. I think management just gives him millions, and he produces advice in a report that management immediately puts in the trash.
Some pax know how regionals work, but I bet you most either don't know or don't have a choice to fly on a regional contract carrier when buying tickets on a mainline website, but I think the majority would back a law requiring them to fly on a United flight if it looks like United, walks like United, and is bought on the United site. The fact that pilots (ALPA) let us get to where we are is sad.
08-16-2015 | 08:00 AM
#66
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
From: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
1. Regional pilots, particularly F.O.'s should make more
2. The dollar values posted by the OP for first year pay is fantasy, and I am hoping he only posted such to make a point
3. The majors don't pay 100/hr to start. Delta's scales for the crj and e -190 never make it to 100/hr in 12 yrs. the 717 doesn't break 100/hr until yr 3
4. the various posters on various threads that state for all regional flying to go to mainline are also posting fantasy. Not only won't it happen, for the benefit of many, we should hope it doesn't. If it happens:
a) there would be a HUGE drop in the number of employed pilots, and others. Smaller aircraft simply will not support, without completely redoing the current airline business model, the increase benefits...retirement,B fund, etc. Don't forget that every single person at the mainline that is involved in these aircraft is also paid more with higher benefits. The flying would simply go away, along with the attached jobs. I won't even get into the reduced service to the countries cities and the resultant economic dominos.
b) From where does anyone think this extra money will be drawn from? Exec pay and bonuses? Hedge fund and other stock holders in the form of reduced profits or stock buyback programs? Reduced dividends? No, they will come out of the lives of the employees who make any airline run. There would be more outsourcing, layoffs, reduced pay/benefits etc. Then we could sit in our cockpits and ***** about how poor the ramp is. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a correlation.
c. For every merged/absorbed/liquidated airline, that means one less airline to apply at. It also means that ,when down to just a few airlines, the so called "plums"can run as fascist an outfit as they like. What are you going to do...go somewhere else? What will you do if those few don't hire you...remember, there will be fewer working pilots.
5. This may be beyond the comprehension of some, but not everyone wants to be number 12,008 on a seniority list. Not everyone marches to the same drummer.
6. I am not convinced that Delta's experiment with the 717 will pan out for them. When our current phase of profits passes, they may find out that the current airline business model doesn't support a smaller aircraft with mainline costs. (ya read it here first,folks!)
While more extreme, it was done at least once before. Southern Airways tried to utilize Metroliners in their fleet. It was a short lived experiment.
7. Efforts would be better expended on some sort of national senority list for a given union to protect the careers of those who will find themselves unemployed. While complicated, with many fences and restrictions built in for safety, a method could be had. Much work was done on it in the 80's. It could be dusted off and revised. The opponents then, as probably today, somehow think that either history won't repeat itself, or somehow they have grasped that brass ring and will never need it. History says that is unlikely.
8. As airlines have consolidated, and would even more if absorb the regionals, we have backed ourselves into a negotiating corner. More and more restrictive labor laws and court precedents have defanged not just ALPA, but pretty much all unions. We can neither strike nor count on support from coworkers in any dispute. I predict it just a matter of time and concessions will be rammed down the throats of even the largest most profitable airlines. There will be nothing done because we can'rt strike. We are generations past those who would engage in civil disobedience and disrupt the operation illegally. (the handful who engaged would be picked off one by one, fired, and depending on the political climate, possibly jailed)
If my dire prediction doesn't come true in that area, then I expect an end run of our protected staus by making an open skies agreement in the USA. Our employers would partner with foreign airlines to fly domestically for much less. Either that, or the country would be just opened up to all airlines and let the chips fall where they may. It fits the world ideology of many who craft policy from the govt,universities and think tanks. (not to mention the media). I consider it a likely result of a Republican Senate/House/White House. It would be preceded by a public campaign highlighting US legacy senior pay and benefits and relating that to the poor abused consumer. The nuanced truth wouldn't have a chance.
Without union leaders who take stands on moral principles and conduct themselves as unionists rather than just short term opportunists, I have a pessimistic view of the future.
Hopefully I am wrong.
2. The dollar values posted by the OP for first year pay is fantasy, and I am hoping he only posted such to make a point
3. The majors don't pay 100/hr to start. Delta's scales for the crj and e -190 never make it to 100/hr in 12 yrs. the 717 doesn't break 100/hr until yr 3
4. the various posters on various threads that state for all regional flying to go to mainline are also posting fantasy. Not only won't it happen, for the benefit of many, we should hope it doesn't. If it happens:
a) there would be a HUGE drop in the number of employed pilots, and others. Smaller aircraft simply will not support, without completely redoing the current airline business model, the increase benefits...retirement,B fund, etc. Don't forget that every single person at the mainline that is involved in these aircraft is also paid more with higher benefits. The flying would simply go away, along with the attached jobs. I won't even get into the reduced service to the countries cities and the resultant economic dominos.
b) From where does anyone think this extra money will be drawn from? Exec pay and bonuses? Hedge fund and other stock holders in the form of reduced profits or stock buyback programs? Reduced dividends? No, they will come out of the lives of the employees who make any airline run. There would be more outsourcing, layoffs, reduced pay/benefits etc. Then we could sit in our cockpits and ***** about how poor the ramp is. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a correlation.
c. For every merged/absorbed/liquidated airline, that means one less airline to apply at. It also means that ,when down to just a few airlines, the so called "plums"can run as fascist an outfit as they like. What are you going to do...go somewhere else? What will you do if those few don't hire you...remember, there will be fewer working pilots.
5. This may be beyond the comprehension of some, but not everyone wants to be number 12,008 on a seniority list. Not everyone marches to the same drummer.
6. I am not convinced that Delta's experiment with the 717 will pan out for them. When our current phase of profits passes, they may find out that the current airline business model doesn't support a smaller aircraft with mainline costs. (ya read it here first,folks!)
While more extreme, it was done at least once before. Southern Airways tried to utilize Metroliners in their fleet. It was a short lived experiment.
7. Efforts would be better expended on some sort of national senority list for a given union to protect the careers of those who will find themselves unemployed. While complicated, with many fences and restrictions built in for safety, a method could be had. Much work was done on it in the 80's. It could be dusted off and revised. The opponents then, as probably today, somehow think that either history won't repeat itself, or somehow they have grasped that brass ring and will never need it. History says that is unlikely.
8. As airlines have consolidated, and would even more if absorb the regionals, we have backed ourselves into a negotiating corner. More and more restrictive labor laws and court precedents have defanged not just ALPA, but pretty much all unions. We can neither strike nor count on support from coworkers in any dispute. I predict it just a matter of time and concessions will be rammed down the throats of even the largest most profitable airlines. There will be nothing done because we can'rt strike. We are generations past those who would engage in civil disobedience and disrupt the operation illegally. (the handful who engaged would be picked off one by one, fired, and depending on the political climate, possibly jailed)
If my dire prediction doesn't come true in that area, then I expect an end run of our protected staus by making an open skies agreement in the USA. Our employers would partner with foreign airlines to fly domestically for much less. Either that, or the country would be just opened up to all airlines and let the chips fall where they may. It fits the world ideology of many who craft policy from the govt,universities and think tanks. (not to mention the media). I consider it a likely result of a Republican Senate/House/White House. It would be preceded by a public campaign highlighting US legacy senior pay and benefits and relating that to the poor abused consumer. The nuanced truth wouldn't have a chance.
Without union leaders who take stands on moral principles and conduct themselves as unionists rather than just short term opportunists, I have a pessimistic view of the future.
Hopefully I am wrong.
08-16-2015 | 08:04 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
I started at a regional and am now in my 30th year as a Delta pilot. (Former Northwest)
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
I don't see the post above as promoting the regional pilots' fight, rather, the OP is simply asking the regional pilots to take a radical enough stance in an attempt to martyr themselves so that mainline can recover that flying that was given up. Essentially, sacrificing the regional pilot to cover up the mistakes of the mainline pilot back in the 90's.
By all means, if you feel the need to fall on the sword for us then please do. However, all 3 mainline carriers are hiring 100+ per month, WN, FDX, B6, F9 are all hiring as well. Those with the motivation and the good sense will spend little time at the regionals fighting over "mainline scraps". This will ultimately leave the regional industry dwindling and compelling mainline management to continue moving the flying back to its rightful home, mainline.
08-16-2015 | 08:08 AM
#69
:-)
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Likes: 1
The bold above is what this thread is really all about. DAL pilots threw their nuts on the table a few months ago for the first time ever, and as a mainline peer I applaud that. But it is also DAL that was the first to out-source 50+ seat jets to the regionals back in the 90's, and most recently the 76 seat. This was very much thrown in the faces of the UAL pilots as we negotiated our JCBA. DALPA has always been on the out-sourcing forefront while boasting some of the best pay rates, work rules, retirement, etc. This has made pattern bargaining a bit of a pain.
I don't see the post above as promoting the regional pilots' fight, rather, the OP is simply asking the regional pilots to take a radical enough stance in an attempt to martyr themselves so that mainline can recover that flying that was given up. Essentially, sacrificing the regional pilot to cover up the mistakes of the mainline pilot back in the 90's.
By all means, if you feel the need to fall on the sword for us then please do. However, all 3 mainline carriers are hiring 100+ per month, WN, FDX, B6, F9 are all hiring as well. Those with the motivation and the good sense will spend little time at the regionals fighting over "mainline scraps". This will ultimately leave the regional industry dwindling and compelling mainline management to continue moving the flying back to its rightful home, mainline.
I don't see the post above as promoting the regional pilots' fight, rather, the OP is simply asking the regional pilots to take a radical enough stance in an attempt to martyr themselves so that mainline can recover that flying that was given up. Essentially, sacrificing the regional pilot to cover up the mistakes of the mainline pilot back in the 90's.
By all means, if you feel the need to fall on the sword for us then please do. However, all 3 mainline carriers are hiring 100+ per month, WN, FDX, B6, F9 are all hiring as well. Those with the motivation and the good sense will spend little time at the regionals fighting over "mainline scraps". This will ultimately leave the regional industry dwindling and compelling mainline management to continue moving the flying back to its rightful home, mainline.
Also, the history of regional flying is clouded by ALPA propaganda, DALPA never sold the flying, they sold the paint job.
08-16-2015 | 08:12 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,836
Likes: 173
From: window seat
The false profundity of the notion that you don't feel someone else feels you are "good enough to fly their pax even though you're doing it already" is empty and worth absolutely nothing.
There is a lot of work that needs to be done to improve, reduce and eventually eliminate the regional FFD model, but thinking you have some moral right to be at any airline you fly code for is spinning your wheels. There is no injustice, and no irony, in that whatsoever.
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