Sorry, no group conspiracy. I do find your paranoia amusing though. Are you really so beaten down that you find it hard to believe that people can actually be happy at envoy? Anyway, whatever. The only person who is claiming iron clad assurance in envoy's upgrade time is you in an attempt to discredit the whole flow program. Its easier to deal with an adversary when they are an extremist. (which is why I find you so fun to deal with)

The only assurance I have ever affirmed is that AA pilots have to retire, AA will have to replace them, and envoy pilots will get 50% of those new hire spots. Based on current ages of those pilots and AA's hiring projections, every envoy pilot on the seniority list today will flow in about 6 years. I have never affirmed any guarantee about upgrades at envoy. But its a lot harder to radicalize me that way, isn't it. It isn't for me or you to decide for AA flow program is the wave of the future or not. It Parker's cheapest alternative to staffing his regionals. Period. That is why I am confident that HE will MAKE it work. Whatever it takes, because it will still be cheaper than paying his regional pilots a decent wage. Parker has already discussed and has been implementing his plan for addressing his staffing shortages at all his regionals (not just envoy). Beyond his diversification of feed, they are slowing the retirement of the S80 and adding more A320s to the fleet. Not stopping the flow, adding mainline aircraft. Which still works out for envoy pilots because as AA adds more aircraft, they will hire more pilots and we get half.

I don't get to decide if AA flow programs are the wave of the future. Parker seems to think so, and not to bust your bubble, his opinion matters more than yours in these matters. Delta with Endeavor, JetBlue with ExpressJet and United with Commutair seem to agree with Doug. And as much as you like to elude that if a pilot goes to an airline with a flow have locked themselves in for life, envoy pilots can still apply and interview for all the other airlines just like everyone else.

 

Claim whatever you wish, but I think any claims of individualism are a bunch of baloney. Several of your chums almost always arrive in short order once notified the dreaded eaglefly or other "haters" are on the prowl spewing undesirable opinions about Envoy contrary to your goals. You're here virtually daily, throughout the day and rarely miss an opportunity to make the big sell. Your latest example is right over on the "Envoy vs. Endevour" thread where you make another fine pitch and even include a link in the hope of luring others to Envoy. Hey, that's fine and if I had a problem with that, I'd make a post there saying so, but I don't and didn't, but it is yet another flawless demonstration of EXACTLY why you are on these forums doing what you're doing. I simply offer another opinion of what I think Envoy's most likely future is based on the past and present indicators and not facades or subterfuges and that obviously grinds your gears. I also just question the highly questionable when it comes to dubious claims of X or Y.

The rest of the blather above about me somehow thinking I decide what the future for Envoy is instead of Parker is as laughable, predictable, inapplicable and irrelevant as is the claim I think NO ONE is happy at Envoy, which I've never implied nor stated. You and your email/PM/cubicle chums can knock yourselves silly and twist yourselves into new shapes selling and making your own claims about Envoy's future and some of us will take positions of disagreement. Being this is clearly a paying job or assigned task to you, might I suggest you try not to get so emotional ?

 

There's that narcissism again. Reverand eaglefly, you're not that important.

Hey, its your world, I'm just living in it. You are a keyboard god.

 

Your stupidest post yet.

 

The entire previous page I am putting into the folder,

tl;dr

 

Serious questions. Can someone put out there the exact %ages for flow with the 824, protected pilots, people hired before the contract ram job and those hired after the ram job. Isn't it a fairly low percent for recent new hires? Feel free to pm me the numbers.

 

It is in the Envoy profile on APC. Big Table near the bottom

 

It's a valid argument because the airline does what the airline wants to do. The contract can make it an expensive move or a realitivity cheap one, but they can a will do what they want to.
The long term interest argument is not valid. That's like claiming that you will push your car past a gas station because the gas isn't cheap enough.
Regionals don't plan past the end of the day, much less the quarter or year.

 

My .02..

I know most of you KNOW this, but in case you don't (maybe those new to the industry), most airlines are run with the bottom line and NOT employee welfare / longevity / retention in mind (exception SWA) -- ESPECIALLY legacies such as AA. As I see it, AAG may not stop the flow but they sure as h__ aren't going to bend over backwards to flow their cheap labor (i.e. YOU) to a much more costly position. As someone here said, it's not personal, it's business -- and that's the problem when bean counters run your company.

Want a history lesson? Read up on AA's version of "shared sacrifice" (yes I know that was "old" AMR, but if you think that mentality has changed just because AMR and US Airways are one big happy family, I think you need to open your eyes just a bit more).

Secondly, it seems to me that the dangle-the-carrot trick has worked very effectively for retention. Just keep the promises coming and people will stay. Keep making the promises, throw in some money here and there and bring on more "fresh perspectives" to replace those who find out that the promises made are not being kept, and Viola! It's all good and all you've done is swept a few crumbs off the table to whet the appetite for that juicy steak everyone thinks their going to get.

The thing is I think a lot of you guys project your own good motives on to AAG -- fine, but I don't think it's reality because AAG will NEVER think like you, do nor do as you would.

I hope you guys keep your options open is all I'm saying.

Cheers.

 

From a purely pragmatic point of view, this is true. AMR has a history of the front line employees getting the short end of the "shared" stick. However, all we can do is use the information at hand, and that points to a positive trend for a year or three. It all hinges on AA's continued hiring and the availability of new pilots. Those at the front of the wave will be best served, latecomers will have a long slog.