Originally Posted by Hetman

There is a delegation of snakes at the door. They wish to have a word with you regarding your choice of metaphor. They do not look happy.

Originally Posted by toomanyrjs

This won't be a popular idea, but why not cut the pay of the lifers by 30% or so and double the FO pay?

Originally Posted by ex9driver

How about every time you say something stupid on this forum we dock you 1% of your pay? Kind of like the Bob Newhart game. That way your fellow pilots or dock workers could pocket more!

Originally Posted by Hetman

...............

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

I disagree. If we actually stood up for ourselves, then this would probably be true. Thanks to our seniority system, all it takes is the threat of shrinking to get a concessionary contract passed to airlines not even in section 6 negotiations. We are our own worst enemies. We make the short term gains decision with no regard to the impacts it will cause to the profession long term what-so-ever.

Originally Posted by gatorbuc99

Quote:





Originally Posted by hockeypilot44


I disagree. If we actually stood up for ourselves, then this would probably be true. Thanks to our seniority system, all it takes is the threat of shrinking to get a concessionary contract passed to airlines not even in section 6 negotiations. We are our own worst enemies. We make the short term gains decision with no regard to the impacts it will cause to the profession long term what-so-ever.




While I don't necessarily disagree, I think right now we're not IN a position to undercut each other and be whipsawed because the bodies aren't there! Not under the current conditions, not without improvements in pay and benefits to attract qualified pilots, and motivate young pilots to pursue the career.

Yea, we've had legacy guys vote away scope, yea we've had lifers at regionals clogging things up, yea we've had young people w/ SJS willing to fly for peanuts (like me, not in SJS terms but in choosing a regional based on a possibility of a home base (RAH/CHQ/SDF...and so much for that, huh?), even though others right now have better contracts). I doubt most pilots don't fall under one of those categories in some way or form. So we've all had a hand in the degradation of the career.

We've had a TON working against us this last decade and a half...9/11, economy, fuel, age 65. We've been embattled, then humbled, and finally humiliated. Pensions lost, multiple furloughs, stagnation galore. Intelligent, talented, driven, and goal-oriented men and women have had careers ruined, lives joylessly sidetracked, families robbed of joy.

HOWEVER, now that the environment favors us, each segment is doing their part; majors taking back flying, regionals guys moving on after seeing what happened to Comair, that you gotta be super careful and leery of trying to make a career outta a regional. Moreover, they're looking out for the future of the career, advising young guys to choose their regionals wisely, going after better contracts/QOL after investing $20-$70K for training/degree, not the shiny new plane and quick upgrade. It's gonna be a slow process, but this IS the tipping/turning point...right here, right NOW!

So yea, when there's stagnation, when the barrier to entry into the career is low, when things are working against us...management takes incredible advantage, and we're our own worst enemies. But now that the barrier of entry is high[er], there's movement ramping up (slowly but surely), pilots are in a position to recapture pride in the profession by demanding higher wages and commanding working conditions commensurate to the level of skill and responsibility. THIS...IS...A...HUUUUGE OPPORTUNITY!!!

I commend the men and women of XJT/ASA and now EGF for drawing the line here. Enough is enough! Although it wasn't some huge self-made movement, a swelling of solidarity borne of unity and unselfishness, it doesn't matter here and now. The fact that we ARE now starting to take advantage of the environment should really be an eye-opening, powerful movement. Aided as it may be by the ATP rule, FAR117, age 65, and legacies returning to profitability, the returning of the career to respectability should be embraced as a unifying battle cry. It's GOT to be taken advantage of!

Although I'm a noob in the industry, I make it a point to tell all the young guys to educate themselves about where we've been and where we're going, and what must be done. I sincerely, sincerely hope and believe my pilot group will follow in the steps of the previous ASA/XJT and EGF BY and voting in ONLY a contract w/ massive gains, or vehemently voting down any contract with a hint of concessionary/stagnant measures. This is a big ol' boat, she'll take a while yet to double back, all hands are needed on deck.

One last thing...can we stop calling ourselves glorified bus drivers? We've been beaten down so hard for so long that we've accepted what others say. It's easy to get bogged down in the monotony of the day-to-day difficulties of the career, but as we're seeing now w/ the "shortage", ascending to the level of a professional pilot is not easy.

The journey....sacrificing either money/future savings through the civilian route, or time/family via the military path...is arduous, the risks...not a mistake-forgiving job, potential of losing medical at any time...are many, the technology continuously changing, the threats are always there, the environment can be toxic physically and emotionally. We take for granted our accomplishments and training and ability! Not everyone can do it!

Think back to your firsts: first flight, first solo, first certificate. They were earned! We were prouder about those accomplishments than about what we do now...but what we do now is WHY we worked hard to conquer all those aforementioned goals. How backwards is that? Not everyone can do this! Both from an opportunity standpoint as well as ability! Acquired type ratings and flying transport category aircraft day in day out, although we're more insulated from a majority of the dangers w/ light aircraft, is still a terrific accomplishment that we should be proud of and should enjoy each time we strap the seat belts on.

Sorry about the length of the post didn't mean to get all "win one for the gipper" on ya. off to bed now

Originally Posted by gatorbuc99

While I don't necessarily disagree, I think right now we're not IN a position to undercut each other and be whipsawed because the bodies aren't there! Not under the current conditions, not without improvements in pay and benefits to attract qualified pilots, and motivate young pilots to pursue the career.

Yea, we've had legacy guys vote away scope, yea we've had lifers at regionals clogging things up, yea we've had young people w/ SJS willing to fly for peanuts (like me, not in SJS terms but in choosing a regional based on a possibility of a home base (RAH/CHQ/SDF...and so much for that, huh?), even though others right now have better contracts). I doubt most pilots don't fall under one of those categories in some way or form. So we've all had a hand in the degradation of the career.

We've had a TON working against us this last decade and a half...9/11, economy, fuel, age 65. We've been embattled, then humbled, and finally humiliated. Pensions lost, multiple furloughs, stagnation galore. Intelligent, talented, driven, and goal-oriented men and women have had careers ruined, lives joylessly sidetracked, families robbed of joy.

HOWEVER, now that the environment favors us, each segment is doing their part; majors taking back flying, regionals guys moving on after seeing what happened to Comair, that you gotta be super careful and leery of trying to make a career outta a regional. Moreover, they're looking out for the future of the career, advising young guys to choose their regionals wisely, going after better contracts/QOL after investing $20-$70K for training/degree, not the shiny new plane and quick upgrade. It's gonna be a slow process, but this IS the tipping/turning point...right here, right NOW!

So yea, when there's stagnation, when the barrier to entry into the career is low, when things are working against us...management takes incredible advantage, and we're our own worst enemies. But now that the barrier of entry is high[er], there's movement ramping up (slowly but surely), pilots are in a position to recapture pride in the profession by demanding higher wages and commanding working conditions commensurate to the level of skill and responsibility. THIS...IS...A...HUUUUGE OPPORTUNITY!!!

I commend the men and women of XJT/ASA and now EGF for drawing the line here. Enough is enough! Although it wasn't some huge self-made movement, a swelling of solidarity borne of unity and unselfishness, it doesn't matter here and now. The fact that we ARE now starting to take advantage of the environment should really be an eye-opening, powerful movement. Aided as it may be by the ATP rule, FAR117, age 65, and legacies returning to profitability, the returning of the career to respectability should be embraced as a unifying battle cry. It's GOT to be taken advantage of!

Although I'm a noob in the industry, I make it a point to tell all the young guys to educate themselves about where we've been and where we're going, and what must be done. I sincerely, sincerely hope and believe my pilot group will follow in the steps of the previous ASA/XJT and EGF BY and voting in ONLY a contract w/ massive gains, or vehemently voting down any contract with a hint of concessionary/stagnant measures. This is a big ol' boat, she'll take a while yet to double back, all hands are needed on deck.

One last thing...can we stop calling ourselves glorified bus drivers? We've been beaten down so hard for so long that we've accepted what others say. It's easy to get bogged down in the monotony of the day-to-day difficulties of the career, but as we're seeing now w/ the "shortage", ascending to the level of a professional pilot is not easy.

The journey....sacrificing either money/future savings through the civilian route, or time/family via the military path...is arduous, the risks...not a mistake-forgiving job, potential of losing medical at any time...are many, the technology continuously changing, the threats are always there, the environment can be toxic physically and emotionally. We take for granted our accomplishments and training and ability! Not everyone can do it!

Think back to your firsts: first flight, first solo, first certificate. They were earned! We were prouder about those accomplishments than about what we do now...but what we do now is WHY we worked hard to conquer all those aforementioned goals. How backwards is that? Not everyone can do this! Both from an opportunity standpoint as well as ability! Acquired type ratings and flying transport category aircraft day in day out, although we're more insulated from a majority of the dangers w/ light aircraft, is still a terrific accomplishment that we should be proud of and should enjoy each time we strap the seat belts on.

Sorry about the length of the post didn't mean to get all "win one for the gipper" on ya. off to bed now