Flight data/cockpit voice on Kobe crash
#11
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,724
Blue and white, right? If you saw the other gray-black picture, I think that was promotional plastic wrap.
#13
The wreckage is blue and white. There are two pictures of the airframe floating around, one is a "carbon" style paint job, the other is the obviously more recent blue and white.
#17
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2020
Posts: 41
My helo knowledge is very limited, but I do know that a ‘retreating blade stall’ can occur after an abrupt pull up, especially when operating at high gross weight and high speed. The result of such, is loss of lift and a rolling motion to the left.
Could the pilot have suddenly realized his terrain situation, and initiated an abrupt pull up, and inadvertently stalled? This could account for the left turn and sudden altitude loss.
Another thought. Has this model of helicopter ever had an instance of the rotor disc contacting the tail boom, after an abrupt pull up?
Could the pilot have suddenly realized his terrain situation, and initiated an abrupt pull up, and inadvertently stalled? This could account for the left turn and sudden altitude loss.
Another thought. Has this model of helicopter ever had an instance of the rotor disc contacting the tail boom, after an abrupt pull up?
2. Rotor disc contacting the tail boom: The fully articulated rotor head found on the S-76 is more efficient and survivable than something you might find on aircraft with an underslung rotor system (see AH-1W, UH-1N, Bell 206, etc). In negative G situations, the possibility exists for underslung systems to "flap" resulting in something called mast-bumping or even the main rotor blades impacting the airframe. With the fully-articulated head, this is not something that would really ever be a concern. If you wanted to, you could unload the head significantly with little to no impact on aircraft performance.
Many things could have happened here, but looking at the weather, the flight path, and hearing the ATC communications in the minutes before the crash, it's easy to look towards spatial disorientation as a likely culprit. Reference the crash of the Army H-60 carrying the MARSOC team off Panama City a couple years back, and you'll see similar things (even with 2 pilots). A strong cyclic pop into the clouds resulting in what would have to be an immediate transition to an aggressive IFR scan is a recipe for disaster, especially in a single piloted aircraft. Having felt the effects of severe spatial-d many times in many types of helicopters, I can attest to the fact that it is not something easily recognizable. Couple that with close proximity to mountainous terrain and the results can, and have been, disastrous.
Last edited by TheRotorTrash; 01-29-2020 at 07:10 AM.
#19
Loss of control
Accident path flown VFR
I'm left wondering if the answer isn't just as simple as that.
I know fixed wing commercial aviation life, and that you are trained to get out of inadvertent IMC; but how hard is it for an experienced single pilot helo to do a 180' turn in IMC? If this guy flew in the LA basin he must of had plenty of actual time, how could this do him in?
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2020
Posts: 41
I know fixed wing commercial aviation life, and that you are trained to get out of inadvertent IMC; but how hard is it for an experienced single pilot helo to do a 180' turn in IMC? If this guy flew in the LA basin he must of had plenty of actual time, how could this do him in?[/QUOTE]
I'm by no means insinuating that any of this or what I wrote previously happened here, just to get that out there, but the transition from IMC to VMC low to the ground can get you pretty quick in a helicopter. Even an experienced IFR pilot can find himself/herself in a situation where they think they're wings level when, in fact, they're 60 degrees left wing down. Most here are well-versed in the various illusions that you can experience without adequate visual cueing, but from my experience it is even more pronounced in a helicopter (I'm now a 121 guy except for one weekend each month, if that counts for anything). A climbing, decelerating turn in the goo can do some pretty gnarly things to your sensory abilities. I've seen guys (me included) keep on rolling through a turn all the way towards 90 degrees still thinking that they've rolled out on course, as well as those (myself) flying along "straight and level" before the rotor RPM horn is screaming at them as they begin to effectively slide backwards out of the sky. It's amazing what the inner can convince the body of. That video was interesting, but the lack of ceilings and fog present makes it seem like much more of a benign situation than it most-likely was in real life. As you get forced lower and lower, things can start to degrade on all levels to include your instrument scan.
This is without a doubt a horrible and tragic event. Hopefully they can gather some information that sheds some light on the cause. At this point, anything is possible, but those conditions (based on my location in SoCal and weather reports to this point) were not something that I'd be comfortable flying in, especially in a single piloted aircraft with passengers on board.
I'm by no means insinuating that any of this or what I wrote previously happened here, just to get that out there, but the transition from IMC to VMC low to the ground can get you pretty quick in a helicopter. Even an experienced IFR pilot can find himself/herself in a situation where they think they're wings level when, in fact, they're 60 degrees left wing down. Most here are well-versed in the various illusions that you can experience without adequate visual cueing, but from my experience it is even more pronounced in a helicopter (I'm now a 121 guy except for one weekend each month, if that counts for anything). A climbing, decelerating turn in the goo can do some pretty gnarly things to your sensory abilities. I've seen guys (me included) keep on rolling through a turn all the way towards 90 degrees still thinking that they've rolled out on course, as well as those (myself) flying along "straight and level" before the rotor RPM horn is screaming at them as they begin to effectively slide backwards out of the sky. It's amazing what the inner can convince the body of. That video was interesting, but the lack of ceilings and fog present makes it seem like much more of a benign situation than it most-likely was in real life. As you get forced lower and lower, things can start to degrade on all levels to include your instrument scan.
This is without a doubt a horrible and tragic event. Hopefully they can gather some information that sheds some light on the cause. At this point, anything is possible, but those conditions (based on my location in SoCal and weather reports to this point) were not something that I'd be comfortable flying in, especially in a single piloted aircraft with passengers on board.
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