FliFast is spot on!
It was the AA crew that upon hearing the latest winds said, " we'll declare an emergency if we don't get 31R". The controller responded with vectors and the arrogant, yes arrogant, AA crew said "OK, we're now declaring an emergency". Not for nothin', but if fuel was so low as to not have time for a go-around and vectors for 31R, then why didn't the crew speak up a lot sooner....."AA is declaring min fuel" to approach control/center. If, as mentioned, fuel was not an issue, then the declaring an emergency on final for 22L and joining an immediate right traffic visual for 31R was waaaaay outta line for that crew/captain. No issues with the call not to land on 22L, but follow the local controller's instructions on the GA, don't jeopardize other aircraft on final for 31R or in the immediate area, go back to approach and THEN state your need for 31R and THEN, if no luck, excerise your PIC authority. I don't see anything wrong with what the JFK controller did, the AA crew.....they need a sit down, big time. If your aircraft isn't on fire, is completely in control, and isn't running on fumes, then declaring an emergency and taking the action they did, without any immediate urgency, is just plain WRONG! I hope the crew get's a long talk with the FAA.

 

I stand by what I said.

A little brusque, maybe. Could he have been more tactful, sure. Were there extenuating circumstances that we don't know about, yes. But may I remind you all that we are not popularity contestants in this industry. If you run off the runway with winds that are encroaching on the max demonstrated value (DELTA and all the others that gladly accepted), have fun with the hearing.

I've flown out of NY for the past 10 years and overall they do an excellent job. But there are a few instances here and there where they will put you in an unsafe condition in order to maximize the dep/arr flow and if you are anything less than stern in your request for otherwise, many times you get ignored or ridiculed.

I don't think ANYONE would divert before reaching JFK, based on the winds alone. They do have runways more aligned into the wind (unless the wind itself was out of limits for any runway, i.e. 40kt steady state.) And the wind reports before the incident weren't always out of limits. So most pilots I know would either attempt an approach or request another runway.

If he did have a fuel problem, however, he should have declared a fuel emergency, which would explain the left hand turn. But it appears fuel wasn't an issue, so no clue as to why he didn't just follow the controller's vector. That part I don't quite get. But declaring an emergency if ATC won't give you a runway that you need for wind limits? Absolutely.

 

So experieced enough to know, that "Grow a Pair" should not be my response to fellow airman when they try to create an educational discussion on an event. Your flippant response shows that you, my friend are the know-it-all. Maybe they will re-name the Flight University in Fort Worth after you...AA73's F/U.

Actually this stuff has happened to me, I elected not to continue flight into unsafe conditions. You even said in an earlier post if you weren't able to land on the desired runway you would divert..but when I say it, it's anti-American Airlines. I'm not anti-American Airlines..I'm anti-bending metal, and anti-hurting people.

I don't fault the Capt for breaking off the approach. But given the facts (atc tapes and various reports), the Capt elected to tell the controller off and fly his own traffic pattern. Was he on fire ? Did he have a castastrophic failure ? Did he deviate to the extent of the emergency..which I'm guessing were the gusting winds.

I have heard fuel was a factor with a block-in value of 6.5K lbs of fuel....however it was never mentioned on the tape.

My point AA73, if you declare an emergency it allows you latitude to deviate from the FARs to the extend of the emergency...but I think you would be hard pressed to say that telling off a controller (that is trying to keep you away from hitting other aircraft) and then descending to 600 feet while on a heading of 120, only to climb back up to 1200 feet and head towards the runway shows loss of S.A and careless and reckless operation.

I hope you won't be put in that kind of situation where you are at 600' in busy arrival corridors and VFR traffic lanes, pointed away from the airport, TCAS in TA mode only, and after totally alienating a CRM resource (ATC).

Airline accident ratings

Seems as an American Airlines pilot you'd welcome constructive criticism...instead of telling us to "Grow a Pair".

 

I listened to the tapes, at 35 seconds the pilot monitoring reported the ILS to be down. At 37 seconds, the controller responded with that he would double check it and then he reset it.

The controller then asked to clarify American's intentions, because at first he said if we don't get what we want then we will declare an emergency (intimidating threat).

The crew's response, I told you "three times" that I declared an emergency...sorry I only heard it once.

Then the crew went on to bully the controller...."get everyone off the runway, etc etc."

aa73, I totally agree with your first statement that the controllers do an excellent job, not sure about your previous statement that the controller was intimidating or threatening..seems like the other way around. And really, when you declare an emergency do you really want to bully people trying to help you ?

While the controller was too busy "getting people off the runway" would it have been easy for him to miss the NYPD helicopter at 800', or the banner tower at 1000' or Atlantic Beach, or maybe the foreign carrier approaching from the South on the Camrn arrival that has a hard time with English as it is ?

Fire away with your flame bait...but I'd like to stick to the facts of the story.

 

Does getting defensive mean you have to be offensive? The actions of "DELTA" are not in question here, nor are the actions of anyone else that used their judgment in a manner that they saw fit. And I don't think anyone "gladly" accepted anything.

I was flying recently, in simlar circumstances, and aircraft at EWR were either circling to 29, or landing 22L. All based on individual decisions, all of which were made by equally competent crews, based on what they saw and heard. All without drama.

Noone's telling you that your guys are wrong, since we don't know their actual fuel status, or the full extent of their circumstances. For now, we will presume that they were in a position where they had a legitimate need to push everyone out the way, as they maneuvered back around.

Noone here is attacking Captain's authority, or American. I think most everyone here agrees they were right in demanding 31R, based on the reported winds during their approach. Some sky-genii here suggest demonstarted crosswind component is not a real limitation, but I think they're wrong in ignoring the liability. You land at or above max demonstarted when you have another emergency, and it's your only option.

Now, if you listen to the tapes, the reported winds were lower when the other aircraft accepted their clearances. So I don't see any evidence that anyone else on the tape did anything wrong, "gladly" or otherwise. The only question is whether they (the American 2 pilots) were correct in refusing the vectors and forcing the timing, and that's a question noone here can answer.

 

Not flame bait, just agreeing with the fact that it's SAD that a crew has to declare an emergency to get a NY controller to switch runways just because of a dep/arr flow pattern.

You'll note I said they may have been brusque and could have been more tactful... but... the end result is that no crew should have to declare an emergency because winds are out of limits.

In the end, the CA did what he had to do to avoid an unsafe situation. Yes he could have handled it better but maybe some recent runway overruns/incidents were still fresh in his mind.

Again, I'd be curious to know why he turned left instead of flying the runway heading, if fuel wasn't even a problem. That part has left me hanging. The rest, I completely understand. You cannot let ATC fly your airplane.

Note: no attack on DL or anyone accepting that runway that day. Just pointing out that you don't want to go off the runway with the winds the way they were that day.

 

That makes much more sense. Nothing I can disagree with.

 

Controllers do NOT make runway selections! Airlines make runway selections. I have read many posts that convey the idea that controllers do not want to provide the airlines with the safest operation available. If we could make the choice you would ALWAYS land and depart into the wind. Why because its safer! We do not get to make that call.

It is sad that an emergency had to be declared to swith runways, but I believe it's sad for differing reasons!

 

What airline makes you file a report/paperwork for a go around? That's stupid.

 

why don't you guys just relax until we see the official report....all we have right now is a bunch of people ASSuming what went on...