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So controllers get more rest.........

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So controllers get more rest.........

Old 04-18-2011, 06:44 PM
  #11  
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Default New rest rules push???

So a few ATC'rs fall asleep and within WEEKS they get an hour added to their min rest. No one died in any of the sleeping controller deals. More than 2 years ago 51 people DIED due to tired pilots, yet we do not have new rules yet.

I'm watching TV and the news has the ATC union and sleep experts saying that the controllers need more rest rules, and that they need to have circadian cycles taken into account and have less swapping from day to night shift for controllers. My question is why on earth aren't ALL of the pilot unions standing beside the ATC union with the sleep experts pushing for better rest rules for all of us on both sides of the radio??? This would be the perfect time to add the extra push to get these rules through and actually change the proposed new rules that allows us to fly more but end up less tired somehow.

Sorry for the rant...it just seems like a super huge missed opportunity for all pilot unions to push for a change.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:59 PM
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Because controllers don't pay ALPA dues....
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:01 PM
  #13  
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I agree 100%.

I can recall twice between 2004 & 2008 when I was still in airport operations. I was out on the airfield around 12am doing a check and heard a Delta flight calling tower, ground, and clearance. I told him I would clear the runway and to land at pilot's decresion. That's not the only time. I also loved having a 4 ship of C17s land and as they pulled off the runway the controller told them, "Callsign, how do you hear this radio? You're clear to taxi to the MIL ramp." Really they only have been calling you for 20 minutes and called up in ops to see what we could do.

Better pay would be a good starting point too so that pilots can afford to live where they work instead of still having to live back home while they try and make it. I could rant on that for a few pages.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:14 PM
  #14  
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Yes it does suck and did you all notice how the passengers were horrified at this? It kind of sounds like they think ATC are more important than the pilots because they tell us where to go. I was watching CNN and the anchor was getting annoyed with the expert they had on to explain what happened in DCA because he wasn't sensationalizing it enough. YOU Mean to tell us that pilots can safely land a plane with no tower people?????
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:19 PM
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I dont see how this will help at all anyway. This is just typical government stupidity. Lets see, if we give them 1 full extra hour then nobody will fall asleep! Yeah, sure that will fix it.

The FAA needs to wake up and do what is really needed. Follow the lead of Germany and Japan and allow for rest breaks where the controller can actually sleep a little.

Then tackle the pilots rest time as well. But niether will happen. Just more hand ringing.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:33 PM
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I've had to explain that as well to many of my friends. Since I've been on all sides of the aviation industry. Pilots are well educated on being able to safely operate with just their airplane. It amazes people every time.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:42 PM
  #17  
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I started a thread on this in the safety section but I'd like to add to this one as well. The general public have gone past the point of becoming complete idiots when it comes to understanding commercial aviation. It's not even worth trying to explain it to them The news networks have ruined that option.

This sounds stupid and I'm just saying this as an example but until pilots start to have a real continuous problem with their rest rules at the moment, nothing will change.

I'm sure everyone can agree on the following statement. People are generally driven by fear in some way or another. For example, if a controller falls asleep or looses proficiency with their duties, they know the consequences as well as their options. If they fall asleep due to the fact that they are worked to the bone, the most likely scenario is an inconvenience on behalf of the aircraft they are controlling. The consequences are that they could loose their job. If they are proactive enough about it, they can ask someone to help them or better yet, get up and leave and have someone do their job for them. Obviously that's easier said than done but it's an option.

Now, for pilots. We fall asleep and the consequences are more than just loosing your job. We all know the ultimate threat is death. Our own lives! Forget about the people or boxes in the back or even the people on the ground. I want to live. If we screw up (like Colgan) we don't have to worry about having a job after. And just stopping by the next airport to have a well rested pilot fill in for you isn't much of an option. Can't take a break.

So the moral to the story is that we try so much harder to fight those nods, and do everything possible to stay awake. Its not right, but the alternative is possibly death. Simple as that. The incentive to stay awake is a little different with flight crews opposed to air traffic controllers.

We need to start just taking controlled naps. Missing radio calls and making the news is the only way things will ever change. We just try way too hard to be perfect. For what? Well.........
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:47 PM
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I haven't really gotten into it yet but what exactly are the rest and duty rules for controllers? Does anyone have any real details on that? Wondering how they compare to flight crew rest rules.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Atreyu View Post
Because controllers don't pay ALPA dues....
I'm not saying that ALPA should be fighting for Controller rest rules. I'm saying that this is the perfect time for ALPA to bring up pilot fatigue again since fatigue and circadian rhythm for controllers are being discussed, it seems like the perfect time to remind the public about the fatigue on the other side of the scope. The side that if the person falls asleep they (the public) can actually die, not the side where if someone falls asleep the airport can be treated as non towered and everyone lives.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:28 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by afterburn81 View Post
I started a thread on this in the safety section but I'd like to add to this one as well. The general public have gone past the point of becoming complete idiots when it comes to understanding commercial aviation. It's not even worth trying to explain it to them The news networks have ruined that option.

This sounds stupid and I'm just saying this as an example but until pilots start to have a real continuous problem with their rest rules at the moment, nothing will change.

I'm sure everyone can agree on the following statement. People are generally driven by fear in some way or another. For example, if a controller falls asleep or looses proficiency with their duties, they know the consequences as well as their options. If they fall asleep due to the fact that they are worked to the bone, the most likely scenario is an inconvenience on behalf of the aircraft they are controlling. The consequences are that they could loose their job. If they are proactive enough about it, they can ask someone to help them or better yet, get up and leave and have someone do their job for them. Obviously that's easier said than done but it's an option.

Now, for pilots. We fall asleep and the consequences are more than just loosing your job. We all know the ultimate threat is death. Our own lives! Forget about the people or boxes in the back or even the people on the ground. I want to live. If we screw up (like Colgan) we don't have to worry about having a job after. And just stopping by the next airport to have a well rested pilot fill in for you isn't much of an option. Can't take a break.

So the moral to the story is that we try so much harder to fight those nods, and do everything possible to stay awake. Its not right, but the alternative is possibly death. Simple as that. The incentive to stay awake is a little different with flight crews opposed to air traffic controllers.

We need to start just taking controlled naps. Missing radio calls and making the news is the only way things will ever change. We just try way too hard to be perfect. For what? Well.........
I agree the fear of the death will wake you up. I also know that new rules are always written in blood. I just figured the Colgan crash was enough blood to change the rules, but apparently not. It just really makes me mad that something that really was a bunch of non-events (controllers shouldn't be sleeping, but in reality no one died) and the rules get changed almost instantly. However two tired (although technically "awake") pilots KILL 51 people and almost 2.5 years later and still not even "temporary" changes to our rest rules. I dunno it just really struck a nerve.
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