FAA Rest Rules
12-21-2011, 07:21 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by gloopy
All the more reason rigs and a fair min day are vital in C2012. The company chooses to operate a million fleet types and in all honestly there is some revenue generating and optimizing premiums in doing so. But the blowback is more and more cities with scenarios like this. Not our problem. DH us to and from on DCI or offline if necessary or pay us for our time to sit around all day to support the operation while not flying.
When we very reasonably make the case for SWA+ reasonable premiums (to account for significantly higher revenue generated per pilot compared to SWA) for small narrowbody planes and up from there, the compay will try and "counter" with "but we demand SWA productivity. We should counter their counter by saying "Yes! We agree! We will be happy to accept SWA daily credit via rigs or block time, however you want to work it, while also getting average SWA days off for lineholders and reserves at the narrowbody level and SWA average W-2's for small narrowbodys, plus reasonable premiums because we generate way more revenue per pilot, and up from there for larger planes.
If the company insists on sitting us 30 hours in hotels but then squeals about SWA productivity, throw that straw man right back in their lap.
When we very reasonably make the case for SWA+ reasonable premiums (to account for significantly higher revenue generated per pilot compared to SWA) for small narrowbody planes and up from there, the compay will try and "counter" with "but we demand SWA productivity. We should counter their counter by saying "Yes! We agree! We will be happy to accept SWA daily credit via rigs or block time, however you want to work it, while also getting average SWA days off for lineholders and reserves at the narrowbody level and SWA average W-2's for small narrowbodys, plus reasonable premiums because we generate way more revenue per pilot, and up from there for larger planes.
If the company insists on sitting us 30 hours in hotels but then squeals about SWA productivity, throw that straw man right back in their lap.
12-22-2011, 06:30 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767-400
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by gloopy
All the more reason rigs and a fair min day are vital in C2012. The company chooses to operate a million fleet types and in all honestly there is some revenue generating and optimizing premiums in doing so. But the blowback is more and more cities with scenarios like this. Not our problem. DH us to and from on DCI or offline if necessary or pay us for our time to sit around all day to support the operation while not flying.
When we very reasonably make the case for SWA+ reasonable premiums (to account for significantly higher revenue generated per pilot compared to SWA) for small narrowbody planes and up from there, the compay will try and "counter" with "but we demand SWA productivity. We should counter their counter by saying "Yes! We agree! We will be happy to accept SWA daily credit via rigs or block time, however you want to work it, while also getting average SWA days off for lineholders and reserves at the narrowbody level and SWA average W-2's for small narrowbodys, plus reasonable premiums because we generate way more revenue per pilot, and up from there for larger planes.
If the company insists on sitting us 30 hours in hotels but then squeals about SWA productivity, throw that straw man right back in their lap.
When we very reasonably make the case for SWA+ reasonable premiums (to account for significantly higher revenue generated per pilot compared to SWA) for small narrowbody planes and up from there, the compay will try and "counter" with "but we demand SWA productivity. We should counter their counter by saying "Yes! We agree! We will be happy to accept SWA daily credit via rigs or block time, however you want to work it, while also getting average SWA days off for lineholders and reserves at the narrowbody level and SWA average W-2's for small narrowbodys, plus reasonable premiums because we generate way more revenue per pilot, and up from there for larger planes.
If the company insists on sitting us 30 hours in hotels but then squeals about SWA productivity, throw that straw man right back in their lap.
12-22-2011, 11:51 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 357
Originally Posted by BigGuns
As pilots this is going to kill us at Delta. We have to many categories in one city each night (or in and out throughout the day). It will be very very hard to stage crews. We must get min credit pay for those lost days/overnights, or we will see a lot more weak <18 hour four day trips... I'll have to work 20 days a month just to get 70 hours of pay!
The worst credit trip I've seen at Alaska is a four day that started in the afternoon on day one and ended with a redeye at 5am on the forth calendar day (the trip was three duty periods). The trip rig still brought the credit up to 19+ hours.
12-22-2011, 01:59 PM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767-400
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by cesnacaptn
What are your rigs? Don't you guys have a 3.5 trip rig and and a 5.25 min average/duty? How could you end up with a four day worth <18?
The worst credit trip I've seen at Alaska is a four day that started in the afternoon on day one and ended with a redeye at 5am on the forth calendar day (the trip was three duty periods). The trip rig still brought the credit up to 19+ hours.
The worst credit trip I've seen at Alaska is a four day that started in the afternoon on day one and ended with a redeye at 5am on the forth calendar day (the trip was three duty periods). The trip rig still brought the credit up to 19+ hours.
12-23-2011, 07:32 AM
#138
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,869
Originally Posted by BigGuns
It happens now because we do not 5:15 per day unless you are scheduled to fly on a calendar day of the trip. So if you spend a day in the hotel you get nothing. The trip rig could come into play if the trip starts early and ends late, then this could be off set. 737 in NYC has a fair number of 4 days less than 21:00 which is 5:15 x 4 = 21:00.
BG,
Its worse than that. Calendar day does not even come into the equation - it strictly goes by duty periods. You can fly a 4 day trip starting with a red-eye and then a 30+ hour layover (or as we call it in LAX - our BID package
) operate on all 4 calendar days and only qualify for 3 duty periods. At this point the 3.5/1 usually kicks in.One more gotcha that we at DAL now have to deal with is a minimum 12 hour rest before and after each red-eye. The company unilaterally started this last summer and it has really caused the 30+ layovers to increase.
The rotation construction committee (RCC) guys in each base are currently dealing with this among other QOL affecting issues. I encourage everyone to talk with your RCC representative with your inputs on trip construction.
In my opinion the RCC guys are doing a great job. Our bid package in LAX on the 737 is acknowledged by this committee as the worst in the system but it has gotten a lot better in January - partly due to their efforts.
Scoop
12-27-2011, 08:54 PM
#140
Not retiring avatar
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 768
Little help?
Eqp d flt# dt dptarv dptr arvl l/o ttls ttla acm dtm
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired.
Am I missing something?
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired.
Am I missing something?
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