FAA Rest Rules
12-28-2011, 02:12 AM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
So am I reading this right that the new rest rules will not apply to charter 135 or fractional operations?
The FAA previously announced that changes to -135 that mirror -121 would be soon to follow. There are also -125...what will happen to them???
cliff
YYZ
12-28-2011, 02:24 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
Eqp d flt# dt dptarv dptr arvl l/o ttls ttla acm dtm
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired. Am I missing something?
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired. Am I missing something?
cliff
YYZ
12-28-2011, 07:52 AM
#143
Not retiring avatar
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 768
Originally Posted by Monkeyfly
Eqp d flt# dt dptarv dptr arvl l/o ttls ttla acm dtm
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired.
Am I missing something?
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired.
Am I missing something?Show time for day 4 is 1210pm in PEK
12-28-2011, 08:35 AM
#144
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by Monkeyfly
Show time for day 1 is 1030am in SFO
Show time for day 4 is 1210pm in PEK
Show time for day 4 is 1210pm in PEK
I'm not sure I'm reading your example correctly. Is the block time on the way to SFO 11:14?
12-28-2011, 09:13 AM
#145
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Scoop
BG,
Its worse than that. Calendar day does not even come into the equation - it strictly goes by duty periods. You can fly a 4 day trip starting with a red-eye and then a 30+ hour layover (or as we call it in LAX - our BID package
) operate on all 4 calendar days and only qualify for 3 duty periods. At this point the 3.5/1 usually kicks in.
One more gotcha that we at DAL now have to deal with is a minimum 12 hour rest before and after each red-eye. The company unilaterally started this last summer and it has really caused the 30+ layovers to increase.
The rotation construction committee (RCC) guys in each base are currently dealing with this among other QOL affecting issues. I encourage everyone to talk with your RCC representative with your inputs on trip construction.
In my opinion the RCC guys are doing a great job. Our bid package in LAX on the 737 is acknowledged by this committee as the worst in the system but it has gotten a lot better in January - partly due to their efforts.
Scoop
Its worse than that. Calendar day does not even come into the equation - it strictly goes by duty periods. You can fly a 4 day trip starting with a red-eye and then a 30+ hour layover (or as we call it in LAX - our BID package
) operate on all 4 calendar days and only qualify for 3 duty periods. At this point the 3.5/1 usually kicks in.One more gotcha that we at DAL now have to deal with is a minimum 12 hour rest before and after each red-eye. The company unilaterally started this last summer and it has really caused the 30+ layovers to increase.
The rotation construction committee (RCC) guys in each base are currently dealing with this among other QOL affecting issues. I encourage everyone to talk with your RCC representative with your inputs on trip construction.
In my opinion the RCC guys are doing a great job. Our bid package in LAX on the 737 is acknowledged by this committee as the worst in the system but it has gotten a lot better in January - partly due to their efforts.
Scoop
So if we have a 4 calendar day trip that has 3 duty periods with flying, and one RON of 25:00, this is paid like a 4 duty period trip; 21 hour min GT from the 5:15 rule.
This is huge for us. Our three calendar day two duty period PHX-(Hawaii city)-PHX pays 15:45 instead of 13ish block time because all our RON in the Isalnds are 28-31 hours.
Last edited by dweeks; 12-28-2011 at 09:27 AM.
01-07-2012, 04:30 PM
#146
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Monkeyfly
Eqp d flt# dt dptarv dptr arvl l/o ttls ttla acm dtm
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired. Am I missing something?
47c 889 31 sfopek 1200 1625 4515 1225 1225 1425
47c 888 03 peksfo 1340 0854 00 1114 1114 1314
This is a trip UA flies double augmented(4 pilots), due to 12hr+ first leg. Am I reading the new rules right that this will be FAR117 legal for 3 pilots?
New flight time limit for 3 pilots is 13hrs and the duty time limit for class 1 rest facility is 17 hours(even class 3 rest is 15 hour duty). "Acclimation time" is 36 hours free of duty.
Looks to me like we just lost a lot of pilot jobs and the ones left will be more tired.
Am I missing something?There are many cases like this where less, not more pilots will be required to staff an airline. Perfect way to stave off a pilot shortage. We, for example, have many island turns that are 8.5 hrs and have a 3 person crew. Not anymore with the new rules. A win for pilots? I think not. The only good thing is a 10 hr min rest. But you can still work 14hrs. Not many jobs out there are so demanding. And the whole commuting thing? Wow! There goes another day off. So much for getting rest. How would that have helped the Colgan crew? 10 hrs sleeping in a crew room instead of 6? The real underlying issue there was not being able to afford a hotel. I think the airlines should have been required to commute the pilots on their dime, or at least require that a hotel be made available if a trip starts before... say, noon. Anyway, sorry for the rant guys. I'm sure you've heard it before. Just my opinions, though.
01-08-2012, 04:11 AM
#148
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,183
Originally Posted by atpcliff
The airline I work for pays for an airline ticket and gets us in for crew rest before we start a trip.
cliff
HHN
cliff
HHN
Do they do that out of the goodness of their heart, or because it's an ACMI and they don't have hubs?
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