787 Woes
#12
It does appear that these issues stem from design or faulty materials. However, Boeing employees are really irate over the company having a facility in South Carolina. I wonder if there might be some union sabotage occurring. Not saying that is the case, just a thought. I just know how ticked the workers were.
Back in the 70's to early 80's, Harley Davidson motorcycles were unreliable due in large part to union sabotage. After AMF bought Harley, worker dissatisfaction increased, and product quality suffered. Nuts and bolts were found in crankcases, parts were installed backwards, parts were machined to incorrect tolerances.
Due to lessons from the past, any speculation that some of this may be happening? If so, its a real bad situation when your dealing with airplanes ( motorcycles, too, for that matter).
Back in the 70's to early 80's, Harley Davidson motorcycles were unreliable due in large part to union sabotage. After AMF bought Harley, worker dissatisfaction increased, and product quality suffered. Nuts and bolts were found in crankcases, parts were installed backwards, parts were machined to incorrect tolerances.
Due to lessons from the past, any speculation that some of this may be happening? If so, its a real bad situation when your dealing with airplanes ( motorcycles, too, for that matter).
#13
It does appear that these issues stem from design or faulty materials. However, Boeing employees are really irate over the company having a facility in South Carolina. I wonder if there might be some union sabotage occurring. Not saying that is the case, just a thought. I just know how ticked the workers were.
Back in the 70's to early 80's, Harley Davidson motorcycles were unreliable due in large part to union sabotage. After AMF bought Harley, worker dissatisfaction increased, and product quality suffered. Nuts and bolts were found in crankcases, parts were installed backwards, parts were machined to incorrect tolerances.
Due to lessons from the past, any speculation that some of this may be happening? If so, its a real bad situation when your dealing with airplanes ( motorcycles, too, for that matter).
Back in the 70's to early 80's, Harley Davidson motorcycles were unreliable due in large part to union sabotage. After AMF bought Harley, worker dissatisfaction increased, and product quality suffered. Nuts and bolts were found in crankcases, parts were installed backwards, parts were machined to incorrect tolerances.
Due to lessons from the past, any speculation that some of this may be happening? If so, its a real bad situation when your dealing with airplanes ( motorcycles, too, for that matter).
It is most certainly NOT union sabotage, although that sort of things has happened before in other industries. This is aviation and those folks seem to have a higher sense of professional responsibility. That would be like ****ed off pilots rough-handling airliners to scare pax and get back at the company. Besides you'd be up on mass-murder charges if something happened.
The real problem with the 787 is that when the MBA's and been counters went looking for cheap labor offshore they somehow convinced themselves that they could get around the quality issue with ISO 9000 and similar certifications. Their fundamental gross conceptual failure was that many non-first world countries have inherently corrupt cultures (by western standards) and that anything like ISO 9000 is only as good as the people implementing it. This is amplified by the fact that they relied on offshoring for not just production but design as well.
There are very few places where you can have your cake and eat it to, ie low labor cost for skilled, quality labor and processes.
In retrospect, Boeing should have been far more selective in their outsourcing. After all is said and done I'm not sure they saved a dime.
#14
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
I have a little inside baseball with Boeing.
It is most certainly NOT union sabotage, although that sort of things has happened before in other industries. This is aviation and those folks seem to have a higher sense of professional responsibility. That would be like ****ed off pilots rough-handling airliners to scare pax and get back at the company. Besides you'd be up on mass-murder charges if something happened.
The real problem with the 787 is that when the MBA's and been counters went looking for cheap labor offshore they somehow convinced themselves that they could get around the quality issue with ISO 9000 and similar certifications. Their fundamental gross conceptual failure was that many non-first world countries have inherently corrupt cultures (by western standards) and that anything like ISO 9000 is only as good as the people implementing it. This is amplified by the fact that they relied on offshoring for not just production but design as well.
There are very few places where you can have your cake and eat it to, ie low labor cost for skilled, quality labor and processes.
In retrospect, Boeing should have been far more selective in their outsourcing. After all is said and done I'm not sure they saved a dime.
It is most certainly NOT union sabotage, although that sort of things has happened before in other industries. This is aviation and those folks seem to have a higher sense of professional responsibility. That would be like ****ed off pilots rough-handling airliners to scare pax and get back at the company. Besides you'd be up on mass-murder charges if something happened.
The real problem with the 787 is that when the MBA's and been counters went looking for cheap labor offshore they somehow convinced themselves that they could get around the quality issue with ISO 9000 and similar certifications. Their fundamental gross conceptual failure was that many non-first world countries have inherently corrupt cultures (by western standards) and that anything like ISO 9000 is only as good as the people implementing it. This is amplified by the fact that they relied on offshoring for not just production but design as well.
There are very few places where you can have your cake and eat it to, ie low labor cost for skilled, quality labor and processes.
In retrospect, Boeing should have been far more selective in their outsourcing. After all is said and done I'm not sure they saved a dime.
#15
Actually Boeing has rogered up for their miscalculation and presumably won't make the same mistake with the 737 upgrade/replacement...
http://madeinusanews.com/2011/02/22/...n-outsourcing/
I'm annoyed because I dumped my lock-mart stock a few years ago when I started to get suspicious about the F-35 (good move)...but I hung onto Boeing because it looked like they were over the certification production ramp-up problems. I assumed once it started flying, it would be all good. I didn't think it would start to to rot from the inside-out on the line due to systemic quality issues. Hopefully it's just a few glitches that can ID'ed and fixed, and not indicative of more to come...
#17
Have you all been hearing this stuff on the news? Evidently, the 787 has turned out to be a huge piece of crap. According to Fox this morning, a Jap 787 had to land due to another battery fire. They've now grounded the whole fleet.
It's real sad that the French build a better plane than we can.
It's real sad that the French build a better plane than we can.
Let's not get too down on the 787. There's a lot of risk in a new aircraft design. I'm sure they'll fix the battery and move on. There's a reason why all of our manuals have cautions and warnings and we get paid the big bucks.
#18
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 20
After all the pinnacle/delta debacle im still amazed at the huge amount of morons that still defend non-union approaches... oh well, it serves them right.
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 378
Pinnacle and Delta are both unionized pilot labor groups. Why would it serve as an example of shoddy, non-union work?
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