Asiana 777 Crash at SFO
07-09-2013, 03:02 PM
#352
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Originally Posted by Sata 4000 RP
07-09-2013, 03:10 PM
#353
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The world's largest pilot union rebuked the federal agency handling the investigation of Saturday's passenger jet crash in San Francisco, saying it had released too much information too quickly, which could lead to wrong conclusions and compromise safety.
Releasing data from the flight's black boxes without full investigative information for context "encourages wild speculation" about the cause of the crash, the Air Line Pilots Association International (ALPA) said in a statement late on Monday.
The criticism came after the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) gave a detailed account of the flight's final minutes in a regular daily update on the crash.
The NTSB is the lead investigator of Asiana Airlines flight 214, a Boeing 777 that broke apart and burned after crash-landing short of the runway. Two teenage Chinese passengers were killed, and more than 180 other people were injured in the first fatal accident involving a 777 since the plane was introduced in 1995.
Answering ALPA's criticism, NTSB spokeswoman Kelly Nantel said the agency routinely provided factual updates during investigations.
"For the public to have confidence in the investigative process, transparency and accuracy are critical," Nantel said.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman told reporters on Monday that the plane was significantly below its target landing speed for more than half a minute before impact. That information expanded on data Hersman released Sunday that indicated the plane was below speed during the final seven seconds.
Hersman said the plane was traveling at 134 knots, or nautical miles per hour, 34 seconds before impact, well below the target landing speed of 137 knots. The plane continued to slow down, and when it hit the ground, the speed was 106 knots, she said.
Hersman cautioned on Monday that the NTSB and other agencies were still interviewing the four pilots from the flight, and she said it was premature to draw conclusions. She also said the flight data recorder would be cross-checked with air traffic control logs, radar and the cockpit voice recorder.
ALPA, the Washington, D.C.-based union that represents more than 50,000 pilots in the United States and Canada, said the NTSB statements gave the impression that the agency had "already determined probable cause."
Asiana Airlines, based in South Korea, has said the pilot at the controls, Lee Kang-kuk, was still training on Boeing 777 jets and his supervisor was making his first flight as a trainer. Lee had 43 hours of experience flying the long-range jet, the airline said.
On Tuesday, Hersman said in a TV interview that the agency wanted to understand the pilot's experience and would release more details at a briefing later in the day.
Aviation experts said the low speeds during the plane's final approach suggested that the pilots probably had time to realize the plane was stalling and to react.
Passengers also have reported that the plane was rolling from side to side during the approach, which in calm winds is another indication of stalling, said Hans Weber, president of TECOP International Inc and an aerospace consultant who has been an adviser to the FAA.
As soon as a plane goes below the minimum speed for a landing, there should be a vibration in the controls meant to warn pilots of a stall, he said.
"If they had commanded full throttle at that point," Weber said, "there's a good chance they would have made it."
Releasing data from the flight's black boxes without full investigative information for context "encourages wild speculation" about the cause of the crash, the Air Line Pilots Association International (ALPA) said in a statement late on Monday.
The criticism came after the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) gave a detailed account of the flight's final minutes in a regular daily update on the crash.
The NTSB is the lead investigator of Asiana Airlines flight 214, a Boeing 777 that broke apart and burned after crash-landing short of the runway. Two teenage Chinese passengers were killed, and more than 180 other people were injured in the first fatal accident involving a 777 since the plane was introduced in 1995.
Answering ALPA's criticism, NTSB spokeswoman Kelly Nantel said the agency routinely provided factual updates during investigations.
"For the public to have confidence in the investigative process, transparency and accuracy are critical," Nantel said.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman told reporters on Monday that the plane was significantly below its target landing speed for more than half a minute before impact. That information expanded on data Hersman released Sunday that indicated the plane was below speed during the final seven seconds.
Hersman said the plane was traveling at 134 knots, or nautical miles per hour, 34 seconds before impact, well below the target landing speed of 137 knots. The plane continued to slow down, and when it hit the ground, the speed was 106 knots, she said.
Hersman cautioned on Monday that the NTSB and other agencies were still interviewing the four pilots from the flight, and she said it was premature to draw conclusions. She also said the flight data recorder would be cross-checked with air traffic control logs, radar and the cockpit voice recorder.
ALPA, the Washington, D.C.-based union that represents more than 50,000 pilots in the United States and Canada, said the NTSB statements gave the impression that the agency had "already determined probable cause."
Asiana Airlines, based in South Korea, has said the pilot at the controls, Lee Kang-kuk, was still training on Boeing 777 jets and his supervisor was making his first flight as a trainer. Lee had 43 hours of experience flying the long-range jet, the airline said.
On Tuesday, Hersman said in a TV interview that the agency wanted to understand the pilot's experience and would release more details at a briefing later in the day.
Aviation experts said the low speeds during the plane's final approach suggested that the pilots probably had time to realize the plane was stalling and to react.
Passengers also have reported that the plane was rolling from side to side during the approach, which in calm winds is another indication of stalling, said Hans Weber, president of TECOP International Inc and an aerospace consultant who has been an adviser to the FAA.
As soon as a plane goes below the minimum speed for a landing, there should be a vibration in the controls meant to warn pilots of a stall, he said.
"If they had commanded full throttle at that point," Weber said, "there's a good chance they would have made it."
07-09-2013, 03:20 PM
#354
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Accident: Asiana B772 at San Francisco on Jul 6th 2013, touched down short of the runway, broke up and burst into flames
On Jul 9th 2013 the NTSB reported in their third press conference based on pilot interviews, that at 500 feet AGL the PAPIs were showing three red one white and the pilot began to pull back on the yoke to reduce rate of descent assuming the autothrottles would maintain the speed set to 137 knots.
A lateral deviation developed taking the attention of the crew. Descending through 200 feet all PAPIs were red and the speed had decayed into the red/black marked range, the crew realised the autothrottles were not maintaining the target speed, at that point the autothrottles started to move the levers forward.
There were three pilots in the cockpit, the captain under supervision was pilot flying occupying the left hand seat, the training captain was pilot monitoring occupying the right hand seat, the relief first officer was occupying the observer seat, the relief captain was in the cabin at the time of the landing.
The captain under supervision, 9700 hours total flying experience, had flown 10 legs for a total of 35 hours on the Boeing 777-200 so far and was about half way through his supervision. The training captain was on his first flight as training captain, the two pilots had never flown together before.
The autothrottle switches were found in the armed position post accident, it is not yet clear in what mode the autothrottles were and whether autothrottles were engaged or not.
Two flight attendants in the aft cabin were ejected from the aircraft during the accident sequence and were later found up and aside of the runway with injuries. At least one of the escape slides inflated inside the cabin.
A lateral deviation developed taking the attention of the crew. Descending through 200 feet all PAPIs were red and the speed had decayed into the red/black marked range, the crew realised the autothrottles were not maintaining the target speed, at that point the autothrottles started to move the levers forward.
There were three pilots in the cockpit, the captain under supervision was pilot flying occupying the left hand seat, the training captain was pilot monitoring occupying the right hand seat, the relief first officer was occupying the observer seat, the relief captain was in the cabin at the time of the landing.
The captain under supervision, 9700 hours total flying experience, had flown 10 legs for a total of 35 hours on the Boeing 777-200 so far and was about half way through his supervision. The training captain was on his first flight as training captain, the two pilots had never flown together before.
The autothrottle switches were found in the armed position post accident, it is not yet clear in what mode the autothrottles were and whether autothrottles were engaged or not.
Two flight attendants in the aft cabin were ejected from the aircraft during the accident sequence and were later found up and aside of the runway with injuries. At least one of the escape slides inflated inside the cabin.
07-09-2013, 04:19 PM
#355
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Releasing data from the flight's black boxes without full investigative information for context "encourages wild speculation" about the cause of the crash, the Air Line Pilots Association International (ALPA) said in a statement late on Monday.
The criticism came after the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) gave a detailed account of the flight's final minutes in a regular daily update on the crash.
Answering ALPA's criticism, NTSB spokeswoman Kelly Nantel said the agency routinely provided factual updates during investigations.
"For the public to have confidence in the investigative process, transparency and accuracy are critical," Nantel said.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman told reporters on Monday that the plane was significantly below its target landing speed for more than half a minute before impact. That information expanded on data Hersman released Sunday that indicated the plane was below speed during the final seven seconds.
The criticism came after the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) gave a detailed account of the flight's final minutes in a regular daily update on the crash.
Answering ALPA's criticism, NTSB spokeswoman Kelly Nantel said the agency routinely provided factual updates during investigations.
"For the public to have confidence in the investigative process, transparency and accuracy are critical," Nantel said.
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman told reporters on Monday that the plane was significantly below its target landing speed for more than half a minute before impact. That information expanded on data Hersman released Sunday that indicated the plane was below speed during the final seven seconds.
It seems some - to include ALPA spokespersons this time - have a hard time understanding the difference between FACTS and causes.
The Flight Data Recorder provides FACTS.
The Cockpit Voice Recorder provides FACTS.
There is nothing wrong with releasing FACTS.
The next job of the NTSB comes from figuring out WHY the airplane got so low and so slow. That is where the investigation comes in.
As she said:
Hersman cautioned on Monday that the NTSB and other agencies were still interviewing the four pilots from the flight, and she said it was premature to draw conclusions.
Hersman says it perfectly at 24+00 of this video posted later in the thread
http://www.c-span.org/Events/NTSB-Br...10737440372-3/
Last edited by USMCFLYR; 07-10-2013 at 07:25 AM.
07-09-2013, 04:23 PM
#356
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Side Note: Consider circadian disruption as a factor adding to overall crew fatigue. The crews' body clocks were at 4AM at the time of the accident. (4 AM in Korea=Noon in San Francisco). Our brains don't function at normal levels between one and five AM - no matter how much coffee we drink. My experience is that traveling eastbound is a harder jetlag adjustment than westbound.
07-09-2013, 04:23 PM
#357
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Originally Posted by MD11Fr8Dog
Never heard the old saying, "its better to die than look bad?"
Just to add something constructive. I am an autothrottle cripple. It is good practice, however, to turn them off once in a while since they are deferrable. Otherwise you'll look like a monkey and the proverbial football. BTDT
07-09-2013, 04:33 PM
#358
...Whatever It Is!
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,680
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
Death is a small price to pay for looking $hit hot.
Just to add something constructive. I am an autothrottle cripple. It is good practice, however, to turn them off once in a while since they are deferrable. Otherwise you'll look like a monkey and the proverbial football. BTDT
Just to add something constructive. I am an autothrottle cripple. It is good practice, however, to turn them off once in a while since they are deferrable. Otherwise you'll look like a monkey and the proverbial football. BTDT
07-09-2013, 05:26 PM
#359
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Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by e6bpilot
It is good to know how to employ automation to make your life easier. That includes turning it on at 500' and being able to efficiently use it in all phases of flight. It is more important, however, to be able to turn it all off and be able to fly proficiently. This is especially important during the approach and landing phases.
It is really easy to become over-reliant and spend your entire flight heads down in the box. When it hits the fan, though, and you get an unexpected approach change, level off, or the box just isn't doing what you want it to, it should be a no brainer to punch the button and fly the jet first. Aviate, navigate, communicate...day one of flight school.
It is really easy to become over-reliant and spend your entire flight heads down in the box. When it hits the fan, though, and you get an unexpected approach change, level off, or the box just isn't doing what you want it to, it should be a no brainer to punch the button and fly the jet first. Aviate, navigate, communicate...day one of flight school.
07-09-2013, 05:33 PM
#360
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Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 72
Can I ask a question?
Why is everyone calling SFO a "tricky" runway? It is a long, flat piece of pavement. We aim for the same landing spot every flight, regardless of weight.
If you want to say ASE is a "tricky runway", you have an argument. Saying SFO is tricky is saying LGA, JFK, ATL, IAD, etc. are tricky because they are long, flat pieces of pavement.
It shouldn't matter that there is water around the end of the runways, we aim for the long, flat piece of pavement. Saying this was "his first landing in SFO" shouldn't even be a discussion, IMO.
Why is everyone calling SFO a "tricky" runway? It is a long, flat piece of pavement. We aim for the same landing spot every flight, regardless of weight.
If you want to say ASE is a "tricky runway", you have an argument. Saying SFO is tricky is saying LGA, JFK, ATL, IAD, etc. are tricky because they are long, flat pieces of pavement.
It shouldn't matter that there is water around the end of the runways, we aim for the long, flat piece of pavement. Saying this was "his first landing in SFO" shouldn't even be a discussion, IMO.
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