Are you looking at ZFW? or MRW, or MTOW?

Heyas Denny,

The way I see the SLI was as a compromise, and I'm not QUITE as hardover has some of my red tailed compatriots....

The compromise was to give NWA guys seniority for bigger things now, and the DAL guys seniority for later. The relatively older NWA group gets to play now, and the younger DAL groups gets to play later.

The big hiccup was thinking that any kind of status quo could have been fair to both sides at the same time. I never thought a BIG fence would be part of the package, so there were really a limited number of ways you could go.

Only a fool would think that growth was a guarantee, and the arbitrators acknowledged that. The people who got dinged because of this was the junior DAL guys who are going to wind up stagnant or backwards for a number of years, but are severely disappointed because they believed the DAL MECs testimony of "international growth is where it is", which was really only a dog and pony show for the arbitrator. They fell victim to "believing your own press releases". Fact is they could only hold what they held because of a temporary hiccup is lost on them.

There is a relatively narrow window of opportunity for fNWA guys to advance. This was permitted by the arbitratior because this group is relatively older, and starts to REALLY peel off and retire in the next 3-4 years. AFTER this time, the fDAL guys, especially the younger ones, will enjoy a much better percentage progression than they would have. So for some temporary pain, they get some payback down the road, where they can take advantage of the generally younger nature of their group.

There are some outliers that get hosed....older, junior DAL guys. Someone always pays full retail, and it looks like they did. By that same token, some NWA 2001 hires are behind DAL 07 hires, so there is plenty of junior pain to spread around.

There are also a limited number of NWA guys that did better that DOH, BUT, with any slotting scheme, this is going to happen no matter what you do. The arbitrator COULD have said no better than DOH, BUT, that would have been admitting that DOH DOES matter, rendering the rest of his award extremely suspect.

Even if they tripled the number of pullouts, my relative position would have only changed about 0.5%, so in the end it wouldn't have made much difference to me.

Nu

You guys must operate a "super premium" DC-9!

The old DAL DC-9-32's with JT-8D-9 engines could barely muster 1100 nm with a load. There were times it would have to fuel stop out of Chicago going to DFW if there was weather in Texas. It would also be runway limited out of anything with less than 7000 feet in the summertime, even on short flights back to Atlanta from Florida (commuter death).

I know some operators upgraded the engines to -15's and that provided a significant performance improvement. Is that what you've got on the North aircraft?

If you re-read my posts, you'll see that your post was unecessary. I've said this very thing.

Carl

I was looking at MTOW.

Most DC-9-30s are around 108k, with a few up around 110k. -40s are 114k, and the -50s are 121k.

Zero fuel weights are around 87-89k, 102k and 98-100k respectively.

The problem that the C series has is the same as the 717...they tried to "guild the lily", and give it a MD-11 flight deck, where it really isn't necessary. They NEED to do this because to get third world sales, the aircraft has to be essentially pilot proof, like an Airbus.

For an operator with EXPERIENCED pilots, you could get away with a lot less. A stout, reliable airframe; simple, but efficient engines (that you can start with 1 huffer), systems that anyone with a wrench and a can of skydrol can fix; and relatively simple avionics.

It doesn't have to have the lastest wizzbang integrated flightdeck that lets you know when someone farts in the aft lav, rather, it just has to WORK, on time, every time, every day, for days on end.

As my friend Scotty once said, the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain...

Nu

Nu you make a good point that DALPA should realize. DOH is important to some degree. It will pay a pivotal role in any SLI with the likes of a Jet Blue or a Virgin America, where a pilot hired six months ago is holding CA on a 319. That would really upset a few if we would ever merge with someone like Virgin America, and use slotted seniority.

Been a long time since I was on it, but as I recall the old Hughes -9/30s had -15s........for the old mountain stations. But, of course they didn't send those to DFW in the summertime. I've seen weight limits down to the low 80s . Oh, and when they pulled the ovens out of the front galley they would lose the back row due to balance problems.

ferd

Nu I also agree with the premise that junior DAL-S guys will take a hit now for quicker movement in six to seven years. If you take your projected percentile and run it for your entire career, it is basically takes the same course only about five years earlier.
Either way I am in the top 20 when I retire and the top 2% for almost the last decade. I personally see this and do not mind a downgrade or two. It is what it is. No sense in getting upset over something you cannot control.

Heyas Slow,

A fair number of 9s had -15s and aux tanks. Most of those, along with the DC-9-10s, are now "in storage" according to the latest Delta "Aircraft Fleet Information" summary, dated July 1, 2009.

If you had the runway, even the -9 9s had the performance if you used flaps 0 or 5 and/or "overspeed" numbers. Most of the "long haul" DC-9 flying was DTW to Florida, where runway length was rarely a problem.

Nu

[quote=Scoop;647544]Of course all pilots junior to the PRIP's benefit. I've never said anything different. My only point was that the 270 pull and plugs were done to give us a portion of the much greater near term retirements. Until 270 guys actually retired, DAL-N pilots would have been advantaged. Now that they will be gone prior to SOC, that advantage is gone.

Remember, I'm only talking about this because Bucking Bar and others have decided to dredge this up again talking about this "unprecedented action" from the arbitrator, etc.

Carl