I know I wasn't meaning to jump in that direction. My point was we don't know anything yet fatigue is already being used by everyone from their union to the media. I'm tired of hearing about it so early in the game it's not a catchall

Depends on how the issue is approached. It's not till just recently that it's ACTUALLY been given attention when it was so easily disregarded before. And for many reasons that have been pointed out, political/economic.

Good point, see above.

But not short either Also, depends on how that day was constructed. YES, I know they're a mainline legacy crew, etc. But I've had PLENTY of 12 hour days, standard 4 am wake up going to the hub. Sit 4-5 hours of mind numbing sit, trying to get breakfast, then try to take a nap in a noisy crewroom, Then do a turn, back to a 3-4 hour sit in the hub, trying to get a late lunch/dinner, without time for a nap in a noisy crewroom. THEN to the overnight. Like I said, not a "long" day, not a short/easy one either. Try it consecutive days, makes it even worse.

If I keep going during the day, 12-14 hour is no huge deal as long as I got a decent night sleep the night before.

If there are 3+ hr sits involved... 12 might as well be 15.

Agree, I know what you mean.

At my former employer, it was common on days 2 and 3 being 10-12 hours doing six leg days, 1:00-1:10 block times every leg, minimal plane swap/bag drag/sit time. At the end of the day, tired, but not dragging a$$ completely dreading the next day tired.

As I outlined previously, 3-4 legs with the sits/plane swaps/bag drag, just not the case. As far as the "decent night's sleep" goes. You know how it is when you have consecutive 9-10 hour "rest" periods.

Come on… the “Fatigue” card is really getting old when crews hide behind the skirts of their unions. Yet some of these same guys may get into their cars after a 14 hour duty day and may drive another 2 hours to get home. Where does one draw the line?

Did a union spokesman really get quoted saying this and does this strike anyone else as completely inappropriate? I don't think there is much sypmathy for anyone who potentially endagers others because of paycheck ramifications. Pilots should sacrifice their principals period!

First day of a trip the fatigue card is a little hard to play. I'm on day 5 of 6 with nothing but early shows and I stay good to go by going to sleep when I'm suppose to.

Depends on the circumstance. If the day 1 show was 5am, and with delays, little if any meal breaks, and the day being extended to 14-16 hours, would fatigue NOT play a role.

And we can fly off on an ubber tangent here. If day 1 the show was 12-1pm, but said pilot had to get up at 5,6,7 am whether it was to commute, or be with his newborn baby, or whatever you think of, and a 10-11 day got stretched again to the 14-16 hour mark, would you say that fatigue doesn't play a role?

Sure fatigue would be an issue but there's different types of fatigue. There's the kind that's your own fault and the kind that's related to bad scheduling and work rules. What you listed has nothing to do with the later. Fatigue due to someone's own personal choices is still pilot error. IE Colgan in Buffalo. Capt. sleeping in the crew room prior with little sleep and the FO taking a redeye from Seattle to EWR. Were they fatigued? Yes. Was it because of schedules, weather, work rules, or Fed regulations? No.

I guess any accident could be associated with fatigue from a certain point of view if you squint hard enough. Why were they fatigued is the issue. At some point you have to prioritize and take the responsibility to make sure you show up ready to do your job. The early flights, babies in the night, etc. are part of your personal life and need to be dealt with so they don't put you and your pax in danger.

The focus of the fatigue issues need to be about things the company and FAA have control over. Not the things they don't(our personal time). Keep yelling fatigue where it turns up being because of bad decisions prior to even starting the trip and there's no telling what direction congress could take to curb that. It's completely counter productive to the main issues being targeted (work rules, duty days, sit times, rest requirements etc).

Wow, no surprise there, saw that one coming a mile away, hence this part;

However, my point was based on when you said this;

I simply responded with this;

If you've never seen or experienced what I'm talking about, sorry, don't know what to tell you.

And I'd agree with the personal responsibility issue. My point on that was simply to list other examples. But those factors will always be there, they'll NEVER go away.