gojo

Because I can almost certainly guarantee you that if no regionals were unionized even the saintly Skywest wouldn’t be operating the same today. Skywest operates the way it does because it does not want a union. Even the last contract improvements came early because a ALPA campaign was getting underway. You guys crack me up. Every contract Skywest has had competes with unionized regional lift. I’m pretty sure Skywest hasn’t ever set the bar for other regionals to match

Excargodog

I am not anti-union. I am skeptical that REGIONAL AIRLINE pilot unions are effective however. That is not saying anything bad about unions per se, just that the somewhat transient nature of the people at regional airlines combined with the disadvantages that airline unions suffer under the RLA makes it very difficult for the airlines to BE effective. Even if the NMB was indeed a level playing field (and we all know it isn’t) and if all the union pilot reps were going to actually be around in three years (and we all know they aren’t) it would STILL be difficult for the regional unions to be effective. Knowing they are going to be facing rookies at the negotiations and that they have an advantage with the NMB, of course the management people are going to play hardball.

Excargodog

If you are assuming I either work at Skywest or am NOT in a union, you miss on both counts. I’m simply detailing why REGIONAL PILOT UNIONS tend to be so ineffective. Despite unions, until the pilot shortage hit, unionized regionals were still only paying $25k. The big signing bonuses and higher pay scales were not as a result of effective union job actions BECAUSE THE RLA PRETTY MUCH PRECLUDES THAT. The payscales went up and bonuses happened because of market forces, as the recent PSA raises show. PSA wasn’t even in negotiations yet and gave up nothing for the better pay. Management simply needed to raise the money to put butts in seats.

word302

Meh, I understand where you're coming from but I believe things would be quite a bit different here than any other regional. First, we would be the 4th largest carrier at ALPA. We would have our own executive Vice President at the table (all other regionals combined have a single executive Vice President representing them at national). We have hundreds if not thousands of lifers. If we organize, we would be the strongest regional union in history.

Excargodog

I don’t disagree. That still doesn’t level the playing field much though. If you could somehow get the major airline unions to help it MIGHT be different, but they seem to not be interested, heck, the ULCCs don’t even look after their own new FOs. $57 an hour at Spirit, $58 at Frontier? $56 at Allegiant and $48 at Sun Country? For that matter, Hawaiian, a nominal legacy, $36??? YGBSM! You have to take a pay cut to move from a regional FO to a major? He//, that’s a pay cut for most second year FOs any more.

Until ALL airline pilots work to help the WHOLE profession rather than just letting the junior people get screwed, I don’t think the unions will ever be strong enough to be really effective, certainly not at the regional level.

word302

That's not really how it works. You can only blame the pilots at each of those carriers for voting in the first year pay the way it sits. Your argument doesn't really hold water considering the regionals are the only airlines to make big increases to first year pay (I know I know, it's really just a recruiting tool). All the places you named have no trouble getting applicants in the door, so they see no reason to do anything about first year pay. We are our own worst enemy.

Nevjets

I understand the skepticism. We all know unions aren’t perfect. And you are right about the RLA. But despite that, it’s still better than nothing. No reasonable person can say that the regionals that have unions would be better off without them. If you think that negotiations are lopsided with a union, it’s only logical it would be worse without one. And with ALPA, it’s not just your supposed rookies. The whole point of any regional choosing ALPA is for its resources. ALPA provides the labor attorneys, contract specialist, economic and financial analysis department, benefits experts, etc. In Skywest, we are talking about an airline with 5,000+ pilots. Dozens of them have varied experiences inside and outside the airline industry. And hundreds of them are veterans of the industry. Just by unionizing alone, the pilots will be adding rights that can protect them. Right now, they have no legal basis to dispute anything. With a union, they automatically have a dispute resolution process that ultimately can be decided by a neutral third party, instead of a Cheif pilot.

And like I’ve been saying, ALPA is a whole lot more than just representation and having a contract. ALPA is the best way for pilots to advocate for safety, security, and pilot assistance.

Look, Management have afforded themselves their own contracts and also an association (RAA) to represent their interests. Pilots can do the same.


It’s true that most of the leverage is outside the power of any union to change. They can exert some pressure but most of it comes from things like how the economy is doing and what the labor market is doing. What a union does is try to extract as much value when things are good and to mitigate any damage when things are not so good. With a contract, barring a judge’s ruling, a labor contract holds even in bad times. This protection alone is easily forgotten until bad times hit. These things are specific to each regional as well. It’s all relative. Without a union trying to maximize pay raises by having to pass the hurdle to negotiate and then pass the MEC before it goes to vote, raises wouldn’t be as high. And some of these bonuses are now being turned into pay rates, because of unions.

By the way, the reason why there is a pilot shortage at the regionals is because of the work ALPA did in advocating for the ATP rule.


Maybe it doesn’t level the playing field but it’ll start to tilt it the other way so it’s not as lopsided as it is.

Again, the pilot shortage is due to the ATP rule. Regional MECs alone didn’t do this. This was a push by ALL OF ALPA. It couldn’t be done without the help of the entire ALPA organization. This literally took and act of Congress that’s been attacked for many years by the RAA. Think about that! Regional management have the RAA to fight for them. Pilots, all pilots together, need to have their own organization fight for their interests as well!

I agree that it’s better when ALL airline pilots work together. That only happens with a union. And right now, Skywest doesn’t have a union. So how else could they part of all pilots working together unless they join the cause?

By the way, the ALPA president who was the most anti-regional, is two presidents removed. So that argument doesn’t even apply anymore. In fact, the current ALPA President is very pro-regional.

wrxpilot

I agree they need a union. I was there not long ago, flew 7+ years in both seats and all airplanes including the Brasília. I spent most of my PIC time on reserve, and commuted for awhile as well. SkyWest absolutely needs a union. I don’t disagree with that at all.

What I disagreed on with the other poster was his/her statements that the SkyWest training department is adversarial. It is not, or at least wasn’t during any of the numerous training events I went through. I’ve never seen them be less than extremely supportive, even to people who were really struggling (as long as that person was putting in the work).

moflyer

The dress code is business casual, polo shirt and khaki pants. If you can’t pull that off you need to reconsider your career choices. Being 30 seconds late all the time starts to look bad, after awhile. If you struggle with respecting the instructors, you will have a hard time and find very little help given.

Hawker445

I don't mean to be "that guy" but could the posts simmer down to a topic this thread was meant for? Training issues instead of Union debating?