Training issues at SKW
01-11-2019, 03:39 PM
#41
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by EngineOut
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the FAA deems anything <80% a failure. The FAA approves the SkyWest training, ergo <80% = fail.
I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.
I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.
I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.
I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.
FAA passing is 70%
01-11-2019, 03:51 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Aviator2019
Interesting posts, thanks everyone.
I am 1500+ fixed wing, 250 king air and the rest is mostly pipeline patrol. I have no instructor ratings and don’t want any. I would say the majority of the class were CFI, and most didn’t even have enough time to make the minimums at SKW, they were having to use the sim time to get to the magical numbers.
I am 1500+ fixed wing, 250 king air and the rest is mostly pipeline patrol. I have no instructor ratings and don’t want any. I would say the majority of the class were CFI, and most didn’t even have enough time to make the minimums at SKW, they were having to use the sim time to get to the magical numbers.
01-11-2019, 04:17 PM
#43
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,480
For your second try go wherever is best for you that will take you. You have the advantage of having experienced it once and come close. With knowing what to expect, you’ll do better next time.
And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.
And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.
01-11-2019, 05:02 PM
#44
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Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Smoothlanding
For your 2nd time, I would try Mesa, they get a lot of guys through that failed at different airlines. As long as your progressing Mesa will work with you.
01-11-2019, 06:24 PM
#45
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by Excargodog
For your second try go wherever is best for you that will take you. You have the advantage of having experienced it once and come close. With knowing what to expect, you’ll do better next time.
And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.
And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.
01-11-2019, 06:39 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,259
Originally Posted by Nevjets
Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.
01-11-2019, 09:46 PM
#47
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 803
I recently flew with a guy that came from Mesa. The only reason he left was for the type bonus and the domicile he wanted. He had a very lucrative software business in SLC. His remarks were that the training at Mesa was no better or worse and that many of the work rules were actually better. He mentioned many PBS elements that we are no where close to.
He said picking up one 300% 2 day trip, a month, put him close to 90K his second year.
Don't know if Mesa is catching up or we are dipping down?
Note: this message will be sharply met with harsh words and denial from amcnd and Skyhawk121, their word is final, thanks.
He said picking up one 300% 2 day trip, a month, put him close to 90K his second year.
Don't know if Mesa is catching up or we are dipping down?
Note: this message will be sharply met with harsh words and denial from amcnd and Skyhawk121, their word is final, thanks.
01-12-2019, 01:45 AM
#48
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Aviator2019
Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.
We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”
To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:
“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)
SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.
Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).
I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.
We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”
To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:
“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)
SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.
Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).
I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.
I'd ask pilots what training/checking standards exactly, should a part 121 airline have? It's all relative really. When I went through initial there were no policy provisions AT ALL regarding a new hire getting extra time. You were expected to pass in the time allotted and were only given extra under extenuating circumstances. My SIM partner had issues in his family life and was given every conceivable option to work through it...back then.
I upgraded during the "up or out" times. This means that I, along with every other pilot that upgraded before me, sat in our oral and our check ride knowing in the back of our minds that a failure was the END. Our career and all aspirations would be over. Perhaps this is the type of performance under pressure required by an airline pilot?
Fast forward to the now where people get upset that they were only allotted 5 extra SIM sessions. 5 extra sessions doubles the number of maneuvers. Or they complain about not having a partner. True that it robs you of being able to learn from others mistakes, assuming you could process those mistakes. Another perspective might be that have an instructor as your partner keeps things flowing smoothly and gives you even more time to work on your own issues. Many different instructors causing lack of cohesion, or perhaps several different perspectives to figure out the best way to get through.
It pains me more than I can verbalize when someone cant get through. I mean real pain being experienced. But my pain has been reduced over the years watching more and more the feeling that pilots coming in believe that they are owed something from training. I admit that the industry is doing guys no favors by hiring them with 1000 hours and no turbine time but I have seen pilots being given every possible chance and extension to get through. How someone could see fault in that is perplexing. Pilots need to assess themselves and their abilities. Remember also that pilots are offered the option of resigning so as to keep training failures from their PRIA.
I truly believe, as was stated before that some people simply cant do this job. They may have started too late, or they may simply have a different skill set. But before one gets too bent about the policy, perhaps they should recall that there are real lives depending on the proficiency in the flight deck. If one cant get through with 3 strikes, or with double the sim time, or if I have to take the controls from from a pilot on a short approach because they cant get stable, it might be that complaining about the Skywest training department is not where one should be focusing their energy.
I dont know if Skywest has the BEST training department. I only have one point of view and nothing to compare to. I can say however, without doubt that no pilot has failed out for lack of being given a real opportunity to succeed, within a policy that was never so giving in the history of part 121 airline training.
01-12-2019, 05:52 AM
#49
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Floy
I'm sorry that the experience has left you with a negative feeling however,
I'd ask pilots what training/checking standards exactly, should a part 121 airline have? It's all relative really. When I went through initial there were no policy provisions AT ALL regarding a new hire getting extra time. You were expected to pass in the time allotted and were only given extra under extenuating circumstances. My SIM partner had issues in his family life and was given every conceivable option to work through it...back then.
I upgraded during the "up or out" times. This means that I, along with every other pilot that upgraded before me, sat in our oral and our check ride knowing in the back of our minds that a failure was the END. Our career and all aspirations would be over. Perhaps this is the type of performance under pressure required by an airline pilot?
Fast forward to the now where people get upset that they were only allotted 5 extra SIM sessions. 5 extra sessions doubles the number of maneuvers. Or they complain about not having a partner. True that it robs you of being able to learn from others mistakes, assuming you could process those mistakes. Another perspective might be that have an instructor as your partner keeps things flowing smoothly and gives you even more time to work on your own issues. Many different instructors causing lack of cohesion, or perhaps several different perspectives to figure out the best way to get through.
It pains me more than I can verbalize when someone cant get through. I mean real pain being experienced. But my pain has been reduced over the years watching more and more the feeling that pilots coming in believe that they are owed something from training. I admit that the industry is doing guys no favors by hiring them with 1000 hours and no turbine time but I have seen pilots being given every possible chance and extension to get through. How someone could see fault in that is perplexing. Pilots need to assess themselves and their abilities. Remember also that pilots are offered the option of resigning so as to keep training failures from their PRIA.
I truly believe, as was stated before that some people simply cant do this job. They may have started too late, or they may simply have a different skill set. But before one gets too bent about the policy, perhaps they should recall that there are real lives depending on the proficiency in the flight deck. If one cant get through with 3 strikes, or with double the sim time, or if I have to take the controls from from a pilot on a short approach because they cant get stable, it might be that complaining about the Skywest training department is not where one should be focusing their energy.
I dont know if Skywest has the BEST training department. I only have one point of view and nothing to compare to. I can say however, without doubt that no pilot has failed out for lack of being given a real opportunity to succeed, within a policy that was never so giving in the history of part 121 airline training.
I'd ask pilots what training/checking standards exactly, should a part 121 airline have? It's all relative really. When I went through initial there were no policy provisions AT ALL regarding a new hire getting extra time. You were expected to pass in the time allotted and were only given extra under extenuating circumstances. My SIM partner had issues in his family life and was given every conceivable option to work through it...back then.
I upgraded during the "up or out" times. This means that I, along with every other pilot that upgraded before me, sat in our oral and our check ride knowing in the back of our minds that a failure was the END. Our career and all aspirations would be over. Perhaps this is the type of performance under pressure required by an airline pilot?
Fast forward to the now where people get upset that they were only allotted 5 extra SIM sessions. 5 extra sessions doubles the number of maneuvers. Or they complain about not having a partner. True that it robs you of being able to learn from others mistakes, assuming you could process those mistakes. Another perspective might be that have an instructor as your partner keeps things flowing smoothly and gives you even more time to work on your own issues. Many different instructors causing lack of cohesion, or perhaps several different perspectives to figure out the best way to get through.
It pains me more than I can verbalize when someone cant get through. I mean real pain being experienced. But my pain has been reduced over the years watching more and more the feeling that pilots coming in believe that they are owed something from training. I admit that the industry is doing guys no favors by hiring them with 1000 hours and no turbine time but I have seen pilots being given every possible chance and extension to get through. How someone could see fault in that is perplexing. Pilots need to assess themselves and their abilities. Remember also that pilots are offered the option of resigning so as to keep training failures from their PRIA.
I truly believe, as was stated before that some people simply cant do this job. They may have started too late, or they may simply have a different skill set. But before one gets too bent about the policy, perhaps they should recall that there are real lives depending on the proficiency in the flight deck. If one cant get through with 3 strikes, or with double the sim time, or if I have to take the controls from from a pilot on a short approach because they cant get stable, it might be that complaining about the Skywest training department is not where one should be focusing their energy.
I dont know if Skywest has the BEST training department. I only have one point of view and nothing to compare to. I can say however, without doubt that no pilot has failed out for lack of being given a real opportunity to succeed, within a policy that was never so giving in the history of part 121 airline training.
^^^^very well said.
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