Originally Posted by Excargodog

If the FOs woukdn’t upgrade they were part of the problem. They were sucking up the limited SIC hours available to keep others who WERE willing to upgrade from accumulating the 1000 hours of SIC necessary to upgrade.



Apparently not, since managements generally ALWAYS go for the cheapest alternative.



1. So you want them to violate other CA pilots seniority to keep you at a base? Or just stack CAs at a base where they aren’t needed?
2. Longevity match with what? How many different regionals have your senior FOs been employed at?
3.I am reasonably sure that you actually get paid during upgrade training. And the pay raise from making CA is non-trivial.




It would be acceptable if they were balanced by lifer CAs, but the vast majority of CAs prefer to move on to someplace that pays better and has more benefits.


Doesn’t matter how smart they are, they cannot change the CA requirements mandated under § 121.436, and slavery and indentured servitude were outlawed by the 13th amendment. Most CAs are GOING TO leave for a major eventually, barring exceptional personal circumstances or so close to mandatory requirement it doesn’t matter.




If they DON’T mandate updates they will be out of business before that. They can replace FOs with 2000 hrs of 121 time with brand new guys right off IOE. If the high time FOs aren’t going to upgrade, there is little reason to keep them. That’s attrition they NEED to have.

Originally Posted by Amg4me

My point is instead of mandating something many FOs don't seem to want is to figure out why they don't want it and offer incentives to make them want it. Given there is a substantial pay increase, the money does not seem to be cure. But you first have to figure out what the issues with upgrading are and then how to correct that. It will not be the same for everyone and that is why you may have to offer different alternatives. The point on training is I know the training is paid. But it seems there are some folks that are concerned about the training fearing reported failure. If that is the truly the case for many, those expressing this as a reason for not upgrading could opt to receive additional training to increase their confidence for success. It is a complex problem which requires a complex solution, but for those that are longtime FOs (i.e., for some reason don't like change), if you can successfully get them to upgrade, do they become longtime CAs? Which helps alleviate the problem in the long run.

Originally Posted by Excargodog

If the FOs woukdn’t upgrade they were part of the problem. They were sucking up the limited SIC hours available to keep others who WERE willing to upgrade from accumulating the 1000 hours of SIC necessary to upgrade.



Apparently not, since managements generally ALWAYS go for the cheapest alternative.



1. So you want them to violate other CA pilots seniority to keep you at a base? Or just stack CAs at a base where they aren’t needed?
2. Longevity match with what? How many different regionals have your senior FOs been employed at?
3.I am reasonably sure that you actually get paid during upgrade training. And the pay raise from making CA is non-trivial.




It would be acceptable if they were balanced by lifer CAs, but the vast majority of CAs prefer to move on to someplace that pays better and has more benefits.


Doesn’t matter how smart they are, they cannot change the CA requirements mandated under § 121.436, and slavery and indentured servitude were outlawed by the 13th amendment. Most CAs are GOING TO leave for a major eventually, barring exceptional personal circumstances or so close to mandatory requirement it doesn’t matter.




If they DON’T mandate updates they will be out of business before that. They can replace FOs with 2000 hrs of 121 time with brand new guys right off IOE. If the high time FOs aren’t going to upgrade, there is little reason to keep them. That’s attrition they NEED to have.

Originally Posted by pangolin

Exactly. There’s no shortage of FOs. If a forced upgrade quits its no loss.

Originally Posted by AlikesitR

I left to a Sunnier destination over forced upgrades. I didn’t want to commute to reserve when my wife and I want to have kids in the next year or two. I was looking forward to upgrade at Skywest, but they forced my hand on it.

Does it help my base was shrinking and that Delta wants to kill the CRJ in a similar way that I want to kill the spider in my basement? No. There were external factors outside of the control at Skywest at play.

But I do know now that Skywest is seeing attrition of very junior FOs too because they aren’t flying. I spoke with a man a week ago who was in for an interview and he’d flown 2 hours in the last month on reserve. Shocker. People want to fly.

Originally Posted by Excargodog

Absolutely. And without CAs, they can’t fly, and with the seniority list clogged with upgrade eligible FOs who either won’t or can’t upgrade, the situation could only get worse. Forcing those senior FOs to either upgrade or go off to “sunnier destinations” was necessary to break up that seniority imposed logjam.

As far as the CRJ, everyone hates the 200, not just Delta, and it is not cost effective in an era of pilot shortages. The CRJ/700/900 Number less than 500 in US service and no one is making them anymore. Riding them off into the sunset - unless you are already 60 - probably isn’t going to happen.

Originally Posted by ryapache7

Scheduled for 4/21 ATP/CTP and 5/1 indoc. I’m not flying as much as I should be and hours are coming more slowly than planned, so I need a later class. However, we are having all these delays with classes. Should I just wait it out and see if they will push mine back? Or should I go ahead and ask for a later date and hope that the new one doesn’t get affected?

Originally Posted by Utah

I wouldn't change anything until the last minute.