Envoy- Am. Eagle loses more flying to Skywest
03-09-2014, 06:24 PM
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Yes the financial problems might not necessarily be linked to the employees, but the bad attitudes and poor performance can be. You guys still have a job to do and its to show up to work, on-time, and to perform that job to the best of your ability. Quit playing the blame game. Performance has been abysmal and its nobody fault but your own. Not SkyWest's, not the poor contracts, it's yours. Why don't you guys as a work group step up to the plate and do your part to turn it all around??? Instead you want to sit on these forums and blame SkyWest.
03-10-2014, 08:40 PM
#82
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by NVUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.
Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.
Originally Posted by Nevets
they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.
Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.
Originally Posted by FaceBiter
XJ can't handle the flying it currently has, performance is terrible.
Originally Posted by PerpetualFlyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.
Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!
Originally Posted by Nevets
Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.
Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!
535 Herndon Parkway
P. O. Box 1169
Herndon, VA 20172
Address it to those who you shamelessly take advantage of.
Originally Posted by DroopsN10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.
When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.
No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.
Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.
Wake up
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.
The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.
Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.
Originally Posted by Nevets
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.
When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.
No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.
Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.
Wake up
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.
The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.
Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.
Originally Posted by Electra
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross9238
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.
Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?
Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Originally Posted by ross9238
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.
Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?
Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Those CPAs? Negotiated by Inc. including the ASA CPA with DAL which had the second lowest clause kick in just as inc bought XJT. Both of those loser CPAs are products of our CEO.
Who has said anything about ALPA or merging lists?
And if you did listed to the conference call, you would know that a VAST majority of the flight cancellations happened on the XJT side because our larger operation operates predominantly in the east coast and Midwest where traffic and weather hit the most. And our western most base, the same DEN airport you say closes all but two runways.
And RJs with 40,000+ cycles? XJT has more of them and management does a poor job of maintaining them.
Also, regardless of us being on the chopping block, it's a FACT that you do ride coat tails. I don't know why you mentioned the two in the same sentence since one has nothing to do with the other.
About the only thing you said that is spot on is that we are both the same. Yet you do nothing! You won't engage. We are both prisoners in the same jail but the warden favors you. So of course you don't want anything to change. Thank you for being a fellow human being just trying to take care of our families.
Lastly, would you take a pay cut while your CEO gives himself thousands of shares of stock while paying for two of everything to run two airlines in order to be able to pit you against his other employees just so that he can be a little richer than he is? It doesn't even matter that the savings won't make up the difference in the loses they created with their CPAs. It's the principle that they want you to take a pay cut in order to perpetuate a disgusting immoral whipsaw business model. Shameful...
Originally Posted by spuzzyair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electra
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.
Originally Posted by Electra
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.
Originally Posted by NVUS
ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
Originally Posted by NVUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.
Last edited by Nevets; 03-10-2014 at 09:18 PM.
03-10-2014, 09:29 PM
#83
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by NVUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.
Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.
Originally Posted by Nevets
they are the ones who want to pay for two of everything to run two airlines instead of saving that money.
Best decision they ever made. No one here wants to be a part of any of that over there.
Originally Posted by FaceBiter
XJ can't handle the flying it currently has, performance is terrible.
Originally Posted by PerpetualFlyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.
Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!
Originally Posted by Nevets
Not just for kcm. There are a few dozen other things that you take advantage of like TCAS, GPWS, ASAP, foqa, and dozens other of other items that were fought for to get congress to mandate. Your welcome.
Well first off, it's YOU'RE. And I'll just add those things to your thank you card that I'm still waiting on an address for!
535 Herndon Parkway
P. O. Box 1169
Herndon, VA 20172
Address it to those who you shamelessly take advantage of.
Originally Posted by DroopsN10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.
When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.
No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.
Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.
Wake up
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.
The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.
Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.
Originally Posted by Nevets
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.
When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.
No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.
Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.
Wake up
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.
The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.
Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
Nevets, those guys at Skywest are smart enough to realize that unionizing will dry out a company to greedy pilots to make a company as near as makes no difference unprofitable. Go back to your hole at xjt and come out with your hands up at the bottom of the SKYW seniority list. They'd merge their list over their dead bodies.
Originally Posted by Electra
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross9238
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.
Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?
Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Originally Posted by ross9238
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.
Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?
Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Those CPAs? Negotiated by Inc. including the ASA CPA with DAL which had the second lowest clause kick in just as inc bought XJT. Both of those loser CPAs are products of our CEO.
Who has said anything about ALPA or merging lists?
And if you did listed to the conference call, you would know that a VAST majority of the flight cancellations happened on the XJT side because our larger operation operates predominantly in the east coast and Midwest where traffic and weather hit the most. And our western most base, the same DEN airport you say closes all but two runways.
And RJs with 40,000+ cycles? XJT has more of them and management does a poor job of maintaining them.
Also, regardless of us being on the chopping block, it's a FACT that you do ride coat tails. I don't know why you mentioned the two in the same sentence since one has nothing to do with the other.
About the only thing you said that is spot on is that we are both the same. Yet you do nothing! You won't engage. We are both prisoners in the same jail but the warden favors you. So of course you don't want anything to change. Thank you for being a fellow human being just trying to take care of our families.
Lastly, would you take a pay cut while your CEO gives himself thousands of shares of stock while paying for two of everything to run two airlines in order to be able to pit you against his other employees just so that he can be a little richer than he is? It doesn't even matter that the savings won't make up the difference in the loses they created with their CPAs. It's the principle that they want you to take a pay cut in order to perpetuate a disgusting immoral whipsaw business model. Shameful...
Originally Posted by spuzzyair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electra
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.
Originally Posted by Electra
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.
Originally Posted by NVUS
ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
Originally Posted by NVUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Correct. If you want to work for SkyWest put in an application like the rest of us did. No free rides. No golden parachute to safety on the SkyWest seniority list.
Originally Posted by spuzzyair
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Well for sure they didn't think they would get a bunch of whiny pilots who were going to blame all their inadequacies on SkyWest. Thanks for posting the article, because now even you admit all the excuses blaming SkyWest for why you guys are unprofitable is complete crap.
Yes the financial problems might not necessarily be linked to the employees, but the bad attitudes and poor performance can be. You guys still have a job to do and its to show up to work, on-time, and to perform that job to the best of your ability. Quit playing the blame game. Performance has been abysmal and its nobody fault but your own. Not SkyWest's, not the poor contracts, it's yours. Why don't you guys as a work group step up to the plate and do your part to turn it all around??? Instead you want to sit on these forums and blame SkyWest.
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
Well for sure they didn't think they would get a bunch of whiny pilots who were going to blame all their inadequacies on SkyWest. Thanks for posting the article, because now even you admit all the excuses blaming SkyWest for why you guys are unprofitable is complete crap.
Yes the financial problems might not necessarily be linked to the employees, but the bad attitudes and poor performance can be. You guys still have a job to do and its to show up to work, on-time, and to perform that job to the best of your ability. Quit playing the blame game. Performance has been abysmal and its nobody fault but your own. Not SkyWest's, not the poor contracts, it's yours. Why don't you guys as a work group step up to the plate and do your part to turn it all around??? Instead you want to sit on these forums and blame SkyWest.
Who the hell is telling you guys these things? Trust me, we are the same pilot group when we were the envy of operational performance. Of course that was under competent leadership of Bethune and his disciples.
As for the contracts, that is wholly Inc's fault. No way to put that blame on anyone else other than Inc.
03-13-2014, 09:58 AM
#86
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by DD214
We Get it YOU HATE Skywest.
Originally Posted by PerpetualFlyer
Lol, wow Nevets. You really need to calm down, drink a beer, and get laid! You stressed way too much and spent way too much time responding to all of that!
03-13-2014, 11:21 AM
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by cencal83406
Lol. All this bickering over mainline flying.
When the unionized majors take their flying back, Skywest will shrink too.
Those aren't "your" slots in SFO.
When the unionized majors take their flying back, Skywest will shrink too.
Those aren't "your" slots in SFO.
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