Envoy- Am. Eagle loses more flying to Skywest
03-07-2014, 06:29 PM
#71
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Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: lav specialist
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by Nevets
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.
When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.
No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.
Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.
Wake up
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.
The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.
Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
You can be all that and at the same time have an actual voice (union) and independent source of information that tells you when you have a concessionary TA in front of you to vote on. Until that happens, you will continue to be pariahs, sorry.
When i read your posts I don't know if should laugh or hit my head against a wall when.
No one wants what your selling. No one is trying to get in your s#!tty disco so fire the bouncer. Haven't you figured out that if a viable alternate between ALPA and nonUnion was available
Most pilots would go in a heart beat. Including the pilots at SkyWest. Your sophomoric language is offensive and counter productive and your vision of utopia is quickly being over run by your own inability to adapt and overcome. The communication between management, pilot reps and line pilots is part of the secret sauce. We've never said it couldn't be better but it's good. That's not why pilots voted for the status quo.
Your self appointed arbiter of righteousness has lost its luster.
I'm speaking from experience of working in the pilot profession at a non-union company and then a union company. All I can say is that you don't know what you don't know. There is a reason why management pays MILLIONS to F&H. And I it's not for the pilots benefit. Part of me doesn't blame you because, like I said, you don't know what you don't know. But an increasing part me does because we now live in the day and age of social media. So you should know better.
Go ahead and make me out to be the person who is trying to keep you down. I may not be the best spokesperson for what I'm saying but that doesn't mean that it is not what is in the best interest for our profession. Using me as an excuse just makes it worse.
Wake up
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HermannGraf
...when we start the negotiations we start from a lower point than before the vote.
The difference in starting point is not that big of a deal - the key is to have focus, alignment, and solidarity / unity on the endpoint - do not accept an offer without very hard and serious negotiation on all key items of contract, using the leverage that will continue to build over the next numerous years. This is one chapter, and a short one, the story will truly be told within the next several chapters.
Yes but without a union, you have very little chance of any of that. You need an independent entity to vet what management says at the table, before any negotiations begin. You need independent analysis of items being negotiated and their costing. You need independent attorneys and negotiators to help you achieve as much as you can at the negotiating table. And I can go on and on. None of this happens without a union. That's not to say that unions are the end all be all. You also need good leadership, which I'm sure you have within your ranks. But without the tool that being a union gives you, your leadership can do very little.
03-08-2014, 02:28 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by ross9238
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?.
ExpressJet was bought to ensure Inc was United's largest express carrier.
Leverage. Nothing more, nothing less. Never was there a plan to merge them with the original airline. Never will there be.
03-08-2014, 10:22 AM
#73
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 869
Originally Posted by NVUS
ASA was bought to ensure Inc was Delta's largest connection carrier.
ExpressJet was bought to ensure Inc was United's largest express carrier.
Leverage. Nothing more, nothing less. Never was there a plan to merge them with the original airline. Never will there be.
ExpressJet was bought to ensure Inc was United's largest express carrier.
Leverage. Nothing more, nothing less. Never was there a plan to merge them with the original airline. Never will there be.
03-08-2014, 07:38 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by ross9238
Easy to knock it by saying performance is terrible. Do you know the reasons why the performance is terrible? The XJT side (ASA included) operate out of more cluster (enter word) airports (EWR, IAD, ATL) than the SKW side. I didn't mention ORD or IAH because I know we operate a small amount out of ORD and you guys operate a small amount out of IAH.
Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?
Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.
Ok forget the airports for a sec and lets focus on our maintenance. Our aircraft have x amount of MEL's any given time and are not taken care of properly (I guess that is our fault as pilots too). There are more to the list that you can add by asking any pilot out on the line.
Ask yourself why did INC purchase ASA and XJT? Why are they still trying to keep the operations separate when millions can be saved on operational efficiencies by bringing the whole operation together?
Hopefully, you guys can stand along with us and not take further concessions when your deal is up for renewal.
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
03-09-2014, 09:30 AM
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Electra
Please stop talking down to us like we're simpletons who don't understand how the game is played.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Gee, yeah, you guys win, having to operate out of ORD and EWR. It's not as though we don't have to struggle with SFO and mainline stealing our slots there, and deal with the same in ORD where we have to sit beside you in the penalty box waiting for our gates. We NEVER have flow into PHX, SEA, DFW, IAH, ATL, or LAX for no good reason. Oh, and DEN never shuts down four of its six useful runways when they have a tiny puff of westerly wind, rendering our airline totally impotent. Also, it isn't like half our CRJ fleet is rapidly approaching 40,000 cycles and is suffering. Yeah, our challenges simply don't exist on the same level.
Guys like you and NEVETS can complain all they want about SkyWest pilots riding ALPA coattails but at the end of the day one of us is about to be put on the chopping block, and it isn't the SkyWest side of the company. I truly wish all the best for ExpressJet/LASA because I know as individuals you are just like us at SkyWest, trying to support your families and sustain your careers. But enough is enough with all the internet-anonymous tough-guy stuff, we worked with Brad Holt a lot longer than you guys have... Its a pipe dream to expect management to fall all over themselves offering you more money after you rejected the TA, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.
I honestly don't understand why there seem to be some of you who are under persistant delusions to the contrary, but we are NOT GOING TO MERGE SKYWEST WITH EXPRESSJET, won't combine the seniority lists, and we certainly will not ever bring on your useless pathetic union. Sure we have a naive minority who believe we can achieve more with a union but that's only because they've never operated under one. Maybe some of you guys actually listened in on the last earnings conference call; the distant noise from the investor groups is now a loud and steady drumbeat to dump ExpressJet like an ugly prom date. Almost a million a week in losses that, BTW, we weren't experiencing from the ASA side in the years after we bought them. That only came after the XJT acquisition, which none of us wanted, but not one pilot had a say in. Put it another way, SkyWest Inc. would have had over $100 MILLION in profit last year had the ExpressJet side not dragged it down. Your fee for departure contracts suck, plain and simple and regardless of who was to blame. No amount of combining departments will make up for that, and management made it clear that the two options are forcing United to renegotiate and pay above cost for your contracts or shutting the operation down. That's it.
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.
03-09-2014, 09:38 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by spuzzyair
Amen! They simply don't get it. They think by combining this or that will make up for their abysmal performance numbers or the fact that they lose money hand over fist. United wants to dump 50 seat flying and I can tell you that SkyWest is all too giddy about getting out of those contracts and parking those money losing 145's..it's just a matter of time. Voting down the TA only accelerated the timeline, the shareholders aren't going to tolerate the one-sided losses very much longer.
03-09-2014, 09:41 AM
#77
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 611
ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
03-09-2014, 10:47 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by NVUS
ExpressJet was losing millions long before SkyWest bought them, long before they were combined with ASA to cut costs.
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
Why is SkyWest Buying ExpressJet? - CBS News
03-09-2014, 11:19 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by buddies8
well then let me ask you who was stupid, the one who sold the loss making operation or the one who bought it. So now the stupid one who bought it is crying. If you want multiple operations under one roof run separately then you have to live with the possibility of at least one operation loosing money. The logical step is to merge the operations since they do the same and stream line the management and operations, this would dramatically reduce expenditures and increase profits. Oh wait that will upset the skw apple sauce drool.
03-09-2014, 11:33 AM
#80
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 196
If skywest didn't bid expressjet flying at a loss, expressjet would shrink to nothing. ->
Having planes and pilots is skyw inc's only leverage to eventually win rfp's at a profit for expressjet.
So, if I was at expressjet, I'd be very motivated to be as efficient as possible to keep share holders happy until that day, because everybody throws in the towel eventually.
Having planes and pilots is skyw inc's only leverage to eventually win rfp's at a profit for expressjet.
So, if I was at expressjet, I'd be very motivated to be as efficient as possible to keep share holders happy until that day, because everybody throws in the towel eventually.
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