135 considering 121
10-31-2022 | 10:46 AM
#21
Line Holder
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 843
Likes: 24
To do over $300K as a FO in your fifth year at SWA means you average at least $25K per month. The current pay per TFP for a fifth year FO is $147.50.
Unless StayFrosty is including the B-Fund and profit sharing as part of that “over $300K” fifth year FO compensation figure, that means you’d have to credit very close to 170 TFP per month, every month, as a fifth year FO to bring in that kind of income.
That’s 17 days of work every month at an average of 10 TFP per day. The typical line here works 12-14 days per month. The typical duty day probably pays about 7.5 to 8 TFP at straight pay. My rule of thumb is that I won’t pick up an extra day of flying for less than 10 TFP per day, which means I won’t fly extra unless it pays premium.
In my base, very senior in my seat position, it’s unfeasible for me to average 10 TFP per day because it’s nearly impossible to get rid of enough straight days of flying to raise my average TFP per day above 10. The only months where I’m nearly guaranteed to be able to do that is when I have at least one week of vacation in that month.
StayFrosty’s math would necessitate flying a normal line’s worth of flying (in terms of number of days of flying) plus at least an extra 3-5 days per month and flying all of those days at premium pay.
Or maybe StayFrosty gets a line each month that averages 12 days. He/she is able to give away a couple of those days. My experience recently, as a very senior pilot, is that I can reliably give away about two days of flying per month. I haven’t had much luck being able to give away more days than that in a month. Often, I’ll have turns paying 9+ that don’t get picked up from give away.
So, let’s say StayFrosty gives away two days of flying each month to bring him/her down to ten days of straight flying per month. That puts him her at about 77.5 TFP. To get up to 170 TFP for the month would require flying an extra nine days, all at premium pay. That’s 19 days of flying for the month, which some people don’t mind doing. But then the problem becomes finding enough premium flying days that don’t take you over the block time limitations for the month. Not impossible but it’s difficult. Maybe that’s how he/she does it. I don’t know.
It could be that StayFrosty is in one of our “cartels” (I’m not) or has some other way to consistently fly all or nearly all of his/her days at premium pay, but to suggest that it is doable to consistently fly 170-ish TFP month-in and month-out as a normal fifth year line pilot without some extra help to clear straight-pay days from his/her board is a major stretch.
I’m not saying it’s not doable, but if you’re going to be able to do it, you’re probably going to need help in the form of a cartel, a military reserve or Guard job (to be able to drop mil leave and help clear your board), work for SWAPA (to help clear your board with trip drops), some kind of company special projects or flight ops job (to be able to drop trips), or some kind of something that allows you to clear your board way beyond what the average pilot is able to do via TTGA or ELITT. And I’m not sure that any of those options I just listed beyond being in a cartel would allow you to consistently credit over 170 TFP per month.
Unless StayFrosty is including the B-Fund and profit sharing as part of that “over $300K” fifth year FO compensation figure, that means you’d have to credit very close to 170 TFP per month, every month, as a fifth year FO to bring in that kind of income.
That’s 17 days of work every month at an average of 10 TFP per day. The typical line here works 12-14 days per month. The typical duty day probably pays about 7.5 to 8 TFP at straight pay. My rule of thumb is that I won’t pick up an extra day of flying for less than 10 TFP per day, which means I won’t fly extra unless it pays premium.
In my base, very senior in my seat position, it’s unfeasible for me to average 10 TFP per day because it’s nearly impossible to get rid of enough straight days of flying to raise my average TFP per day above 10. The only months where I’m nearly guaranteed to be able to do that is when I have at least one week of vacation in that month.
StayFrosty’s math would necessitate flying a normal line’s worth of flying (in terms of number of days of flying) plus at least an extra 3-5 days per month and flying all of those days at premium pay.
Or maybe StayFrosty gets a line each month that averages 12 days. He/she is able to give away a couple of those days. My experience recently, as a very senior pilot, is that I can reliably give away about two days of flying per month. I haven’t had much luck being able to give away more days than that in a month. Often, I’ll have turns paying 9+ that don’t get picked up from give away.
So, let’s say StayFrosty gives away two days of flying each month to bring him/her down to ten days of straight flying per month. That puts him her at about 77.5 TFP. To get up to 170 TFP for the month would require flying an extra nine days, all at premium pay. That’s 19 days of flying for the month, which some people don’t mind doing. But then the problem becomes finding enough premium flying days that don’t take you over the block time limitations for the month. Not impossible but it’s difficult. Maybe that’s how he/she does it. I don’t know.
It could be that StayFrosty is in one of our “cartels” (I’m not) or has some other way to consistently fly all or nearly all of his/her days at premium pay, but to suggest that it is doable to consistently fly 170-ish TFP month-in and month-out as a normal fifth year line pilot without some extra help to clear straight-pay days from his/her board is a major stretch.
I’m not saying it’s not doable, but if you’re going to be able to do it, you’re probably going to need help in the form of a cartel, a military reserve or Guard job (to be able to drop mil leave and help clear your board), work for SWAPA (to help clear your board with trip drops), some kind of company special projects or flight ops job (to be able to drop trips), or some kind of something that allows you to clear your board way beyond what the average pilot is able to do via TTGA or ELITT. And I’m not sure that any of those options I just listed beyond being in a cartel would allow you to consistently credit over 170 TFP per month.
I get what you are saying. But, if you fly LOW block stuff, bang in sick here and there, use overlap to kill any early month stuff, elitt down 1 or 2 days and work 16 days plus a sick call. 170-180 is very doable.
10-31-2022 | 12:02 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
For starters, in my experience, “[ELITT’ing] down 1 or 2 days” is very difficult to do and largely a matter of luck to be able to respond ultra quickly to the net zero going positive before anyone else does. Maybe you are just really lucky. Maybe you have some sort of software not available to most other people that allows you to automate that process.
Second, given the way our lines are constructed, it’s difficult to be awarded a line that pays significantly less block than all of the other lines. Yes, you can go into ELITT and try to trade trips from your line for lower block trips, but then trips like that in ELITT are usually going to pay low credit.
Third, “bang[ing] in sick” pays straight time. And, with our rate of sick time accumulation, it’s hard to build up sick time at a rate that allows you to call in sick for a 3-day more than once every other month.
I personally don’t usually take advantage of the month-to-month overlap so I can’t really speak to that. But the rest of the strategies you’re saying you use to consistently yield not just 170 TFP per month, but 180 TFP per month, don’t really seem like they’d carry you across that threshold. The month-to-month overlap must be the key to the whole thing?
To summarize, then, you usually work 16 days per month and credit 19 days per month, with three of those days usually being a sick call at straight time every month?
Out of your, let’s say twelve-day awarded line, you are able to also consistently drop one or two days per month by being able to hit the net zero for the split second when it’s positive.
That brings you down to 10 days from your awarded line remaining. Then, you’re able to drop two or three days every month via the month to month overlap, which brings you down to seven days of straight flying. Depending on the month, it seems like it would take seniority to bid the overlap the way you want to in order to drop the days you want to drop but, like I said, I’m not real familiar with working the overlap, so maybe not.
So, let’s say those seven days of straight flying average 7.75 TFP. That brings you to 54.25 TFP. Then you pick up nine days of premium flying at an average of 10 TFP per day for a total of 90 TFP of premium flying and a total for the month of 144.25 TFP before your monthly sick call on a three-day trip paying straight time of 23.25 TFP, for a total for the month of 167.5.
Okay, I guess if all of those things worked out perfectly and you were able to consistently hit the net zero that I always seem to miss for some reason, build up sick time at a rate quicker than we build it up contractually, and work the overlap to consistently drop a 3-day trip every month, I guess you could consistently earn close to 170 TFP per month.
But I dunno - given all of the things that would need to happen consistently and require luck, good timing, and/or extra-contractual rates of building up sick time, it seems like a stretch for this to be something you can do consistently.
10-31-2022 | 01:29 PM
#23
Spikes the Koolaid
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 435
Likes: 16
From: 737
I don’t know man.
For starters, in my experience, “[ELITT’ing] down 1 or 2 days” is very difficult to do and largely a matter of luck to be able to respond ultra quickly to the net zero going positive before anyone else does. Maybe you are just really lucky. Maybe you have some sort of software not available to most other people that allows you to automate that process.
Second, given the way our lines are constructed, it’s difficult to be awarded a line that pays significantly less block than all of the other lines. Yes, you can go into ELITT and try to trade trips from your line for lower block trips, but then trips like that in ELITT are usually going to pay low credit.
Third, “bang[ing] in sick” pays straight time. And, with our rate of sick time accumulation, it’s hard to build up sick time at a rate that allows you to call in sick for a 3-day more than once every other month.
I personally don’t usually take advantage of the month-to-month overlap so I can’t really speak to that. But the rest of the strategies you’re saying you use to consistently yield not just 170 TFP per month, but 180 TFP per month, don’t really seem like they’d carry you across that threshold. The month-to-month overlap must be the key to the whole thing?
To summarize, then, you usually work 16 days per month and credit 19 days per month, with three of those days usually being a sick call at straight time every month?
Out of your, let’s say twelve-day awarded line, you are able to also consistently drop one or two days per month by being able to hit the net zero for the split second when it’s positive.
That brings you down to 10 days from your awarded line remaining. Then, you’re able to drop two or three days every month via the month to month overlap, which brings you down to seven days of straight flying. Depending on the month, it seems like it would take seniority to bid the overlap the way you want to in order to drop the days you want to drop but, like I said, I’m not real familiar with working the overlap, so maybe not.
So, let’s say those seven days of straight flying average 7.75 TFP. That brings you to 54.25 TFP. Then you pick up nine days of premium flying at an average of 10 TFP per day for a total of 90 TFP of premium flying and a total for the month of 144.25 TFP before your monthly sick call on a three-day trip paying straight time of 23.25 TFP, for a total for the month of 167.5.
Okay, I guess if all of those things worked out perfectly and you were able to consistently hit the net zero that I always seem to miss for some reason, build up sick time at a rate quicker than we build it up contractually, and work the overlap to consistently drop a 3-day trip every month, I guess you could consistently earn close to 170 TFP per month.
But I dunno - given all of the things that would need to happen consistently and require luck, good timing, and/or extra-contractual rates of building up sick time, it seems like a stretch for this to be something you can do consistently.
For starters, in my experience, “[ELITT’ing] down 1 or 2 days” is very difficult to do and largely a matter of luck to be able to respond ultra quickly to the net zero going positive before anyone else does. Maybe you are just really lucky. Maybe you have some sort of software not available to most other people that allows you to automate that process.
Second, given the way our lines are constructed, it’s difficult to be awarded a line that pays significantly less block than all of the other lines. Yes, you can go into ELITT and try to trade trips from your line for lower block trips, but then trips like that in ELITT are usually going to pay low credit.
Third, “bang[ing] in sick” pays straight time. And, with our rate of sick time accumulation, it’s hard to build up sick time at a rate that allows you to call in sick for a 3-day more than once every other month.
I personally don’t usually take advantage of the month-to-month overlap so I can’t really speak to that. But the rest of the strategies you’re saying you use to consistently yield not just 170 TFP per month, but 180 TFP per month, don’t really seem like they’d carry you across that threshold. The month-to-month overlap must be the key to the whole thing?
To summarize, then, you usually work 16 days per month and credit 19 days per month, with three of those days usually being a sick call at straight time every month?
Out of your, let’s say twelve-day awarded line, you are able to also consistently drop one or two days per month by being able to hit the net zero for the split second when it’s positive.
That brings you down to 10 days from your awarded line remaining. Then, you’re able to drop two or three days every month via the month to month overlap, which brings you down to seven days of straight flying. Depending on the month, it seems like it would take seniority to bid the overlap the way you want to in order to drop the days you want to drop but, like I said, I’m not real familiar with working the overlap, so maybe not.
So, let’s say those seven days of straight flying average 7.75 TFP. That brings you to 54.25 TFP. Then you pick up nine days of premium flying at an average of 10 TFP per day for a total of 90 TFP of premium flying and a total for the month of 144.25 TFP before your monthly sick call on a three-day trip paying straight time of 23.25 TFP, for a total for the month of 167.5.
Okay, I guess if all of those things worked out perfectly and you were able to consistently hit the net zero that I always seem to miss for some reason, build up sick time at a rate quicker than we build it up contractually, and work the overlap to consistently drop a 3-day trip every month, I guess you could consistently earn close to 170 TFP per month.
But I dunno - given all of the things that would need to happen consistently and require luck, good timing, and/or extra-contractual rates of building up sick time, it seems like a stretch for this to be something you can do consistently.
One caveat though to your math, is the idea of vacation months. At 5 years you have your 3rd week, and if you can do 200 a month for three months using one week in each month, that DOES alleviate the pressure to do 170 every other month.
10-31-2022 | 03:35 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,655
Likes: 300
I mean, there’s people who live on CWA and clear their board every month and pick up anything and everything they can get (commuting all over the country and sniping things at straight when they’re over the cap). I’ve seen their schedule and the dudes have like 4-6 days off a month on paper.
Not my bag of tea at all. I have a life outside work and live well below my means, so I don’t need to work that much.
I am finishing my 7th year and have avg’d 140/mo this year with only picking up 2-3 days of work at premium every month.
Not my bag of tea at all. I have a life outside work and live well below my means, so I don’t need to work that much.
I am finishing my 7th year and have avg’d 140/mo this year with only picking up 2-3 days of work at premium every month.
10-31-2022 | 04:13 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
But, if you did manage to pull off 200 TFP each month you had vacation, then it would bring the average TFP per month to make $300K as a fifth year FO for the remaining nine months of the year down to 155 TFP.
i was able to pull off a little over 200 TFP in July with a vacation week but it required me flying over vacation and my seniority allowed me to clear most of the month with my one week of vacation.
I also had vacation in May and June and pulled 175 TFP and 185 TFP respectively while flying premium on vacation. Without vacation, I get nowhere near those totals primarily because virtually no one picks up from TTGA and it’s very difficult to trade down via ELITT.
If I wanted to fly 18 days per month in non-vacation months, then maybe I could get up to 160-ish TFP if I scored a couple of premium 35 TFP 3-days but those are pretty rare in open time, are usually high block trips, and would be difficult to not go over block time limits if I had to fly most of the rest of my line at straight pay (because getting rid of straight-paying days is difficult via TTGA and ELITT).
Depending on the month it might also be difficult to get the second premium 35 TFP 3-day because I’d be over the cap when bidding on it.
So, no I don’t think making over $300K as a fifth year SWA FO is something that can be easily accomplished. Like you explained, maybe some guys who work really hard at it could do it, but to imply that it is “easy” is an enormous exaggeration.
10-31-2022 | 04:45 PM
#26
Thread Starter
Weekend Reserve
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Thats true, but he/she didn’t mention vacation as one of the things that enabled them to consistently pull off 180 TFP per month. They cited ELITT, sick calls, and the overlap as the tools they use.
But, if you did manage to pull off 200 TFP each month you had vacation, then it would bring the average TFP per month to make $300K as a fifth year FO for the remaining nine months of the year down to 155 TFP.
i was able to pull off a little over 200 TFP in July with a vacation week but it required me flying over vacation and my seniority allowed me to clear most of the month with my one week of vacation.
I also had vacation in May and June and pulled 175 TFP and 185 TFP respectively while flying premium on vacation. Without vacation, I get nowhere near those totals primarily because virtually no one picks up from TTGA and it’s very difficult to trade down via ELITT.
If I wanted to fly 18 days per month in non-vacation months, then maybe I could get up to 160-ish TFP if I scored a couple of premium 35 TFP 3-days but those are pretty rare in open time, are usually high block trips, and would be difficult to not go over block time limits if I had to fly most of the rest of my line at straight pay (because getting rid of straight-paying days is difficult via TTGA and ELITT).
Depending on the month it might also be difficult to get the second premium 35 TFP 3-day because I’d be over the cap when bidding on it.
So, no I don’t think making over $300K as a fifth year SWA FO is something that can be easily accomplished. Like you explained, maybe some guys who work really hard at it could do it, but to imply that it is “easy” is an enormous exaggeration.
But, if you did manage to pull off 200 TFP each month you had vacation, then it would bring the average TFP per month to make $300K as a fifth year FO for the remaining nine months of the year down to 155 TFP.
i was able to pull off a little over 200 TFP in July with a vacation week but it required me flying over vacation and my seniority allowed me to clear most of the month with my one week of vacation.
I also had vacation in May and June and pulled 175 TFP and 185 TFP respectively while flying premium on vacation. Without vacation, I get nowhere near those totals primarily because virtually no one picks up from TTGA and it’s very difficult to trade down via ELITT.
If I wanted to fly 18 days per month in non-vacation months, then maybe I could get up to 160-ish TFP if I scored a couple of premium 35 TFP 3-days but those are pretty rare in open time, are usually high block trips, and would be difficult to not go over block time limits if I had to fly most of the rest of my line at straight pay (because getting rid of straight-paying days is difficult via TTGA and ELITT).
Depending on the month it might also be difficult to get the second premium 35 TFP 3-day because I’d be over the cap when bidding on it.
So, no I don’t think making over $300K as a fifth year SWA FO is something that can be easily accomplished. Like you explained, maybe some guys who work really hard at it could do it, but to imply that it is “easy” is an enormous exaggeration.
10-31-2022 | 05:25 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
I mean, there’s people who live on CWA and clear their board every month and pick up anything and everything they can get (commuting all over the country and sniping things at straight when they’re over the cap). I’ve seen their schedule and the dudes have like 4-6 days off a month on paper.
Not my bag of tea at all. I have a life outside work and live well below my means, so I don’t need to work that much.
I am finishing my 7th year and have avg’d 140/mo this year with only picking up 2-3 days of work at premium every month.
Not my bag of tea at all. I have a life outside work and live well below my means, so I don’t need to work that much.
I am finishing my 7th year and have avg’d 140/mo this year with only picking up 2-3 days of work at premium every month.
I guess if you scored a very high-paying three-day premium trip each month that paid approximately 40 TFP, it would get you to 135 TFP with an average-paying line. But maybe you bid lines that pay right around 100 TFP or trade trips that bring your line total up to around 100 TFP - which would require four 3-day trips paying an average of 25 TFP (pretty high-paying) or some similar combination of trips - and then you score a super-high-paying 3-day premium trip at 40 TFP. That's impressive if that's how you're doing it.
10-31-2022 | 05:45 PM
#28
— No Relief On Scope —
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 306
From: B737 Left Seat
I saw a friend’s board—made $300K on 6th year pay but he had no life. It’s possible to do if you live in base and can snap up SNOT and HOT stuff, and yes, out of base and vacation flying…. It’s not for everyone! For me, I fly my line but will try some premium stuff now that I’m less than 100 in base. I drive two hours to base so it’s not always feasible. I also don’t live an extravagant lifestyle—I end up about 105 per month and that’s fine for me.
10-31-2022 | 09:48 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,655
Likes: 300
Just curious how you do that. It seems like most of our lines average roughly 95 TFP when awarded per month. A very high-paying three day premium trip pays 35-40 TFP. Most pay 30-35 TFP. Some pay less than 30 TFP. On very rare occasions, I've seen a 3-day in open time that paid more than 40 TFP.
I guess if you scored a very high-paying three-day premium trip each month that paid approximately 40 TFP, it would get you to 135 TFP with an average-paying line. But maybe you bid lines that pay right around 100 TFP or trade trips that bring your line total up to around 100 TFP - which would require four 3-day trips paying an average of 25 TFP (pretty high-paying) or some similar combination of trips - and then you score a super-high-paying 3-day premium trip at 40 TFP. That's impressive if that's how you're doing it.
I guess if you scored a very high-paying three-day premium trip each month that paid approximately 40 TFP, it would get you to 135 TFP with an average-paying line. But maybe you bid lines that pay right around 100 TFP or trade trips that bring your line total up to around 100 TFP - which would require four 3-day trips paying an average of 25 TFP (pretty high-paying) or some similar combination of trips - and then you score a super-high-paying 3-day premium trip at 40 TFP. That's impressive if that's how you're doing it.
There’s been a couple project pilot TR pulls and IOE pulls too where I’ve picked up around. The rest is just the usual reroute dysfunction…some months you get lucky and others you don’t hear from scheduling at all.
I’d guess my usual avg is around 120-130 but the last couple years have been a bit….weird.
11-01-2022 | 01:25 AM
#30
Line Holder
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 843
Likes: 24
Just curious how you do that. It seems like most of our lines average roughly 95 TFP when awarded per month. A very high-paying three day premium trip pays 35-40 TFP. Most pay 30-35 TFP. Some pay less than 30 TFP. On very rare occasions, I've seen a 3-day in open time that paid more than 40 TFP.
I guess if you scored a very high-paying three-day premium trip each month that paid approximately 40 TFP, it would get you to 135 TFP with an average-paying line. But maybe you bid lines that pay right around 100 TFP or trade trips that bring your line total up to around 100 TFP - which would require four 3-day trips paying an average of 25 TFP (pretty high-paying) or some similar combination of trips - and then you score a super-high-paying 3-day premium trip at 40 TFP. That's impressive if that's how you're doing it.
I guess if you scored a very high-paying three-day premium trip each month that paid approximately 40 TFP, it would get you to 135 TFP with an average-paying line. But maybe you bid lines that pay right around 100 TFP or trade trips that bring your line total up to around 100 TFP - which would require four 3-day trips paying an average of 25 TFP (pretty high-paying) or some similar combination of trips - and then you score a super-high-paying 3-day premium trip at 40 TFP. That's impressive if that's how you're doing it.
Blank lines have been coming out at 108-109 TFP out of the gate....
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