2017 Hiring Numbers?
10-30-2016 | 07:55 PM
#71
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Never claimed to be an expert, Drum (does anyone?). As you said, an opinion piece, which is the purpose of an open forum. Relax, no need for personal digs.
Last edited by tyler durden; 10-30-2016 at 08:32 PM.
10-30-2016 | 09:42 PM
#72
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Joined: Jul 2015
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Not saying ten years of experience are required but a solid couple years maybe on a little more demanding airplane like the Maddog into LGA..
But it's great to have different opinions and discuss on a factual level. One of my classmates coming from Allegiant was pretty happy to jump ship there.
10-31-2016 | 03:43 AM
#73
Banned
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,982
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From: 3+ hour sit in the ATL
My guess is you know little of the others since I'm fairly confident you are not gainfully in their employ.
10-31-2016 | 05:18 AM
#74
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 310
Likes: 13
2. What did he say that is non factual?
3. I work for SWA and would say TD has his facts pretty straight.
I'm sorry if you don't agree.
10-31-2016 | 08:07 AM
#75
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,258
Likes: 240
From: B737CA
A couple of areas where Southwest seems to shine are the bases and the work rules or rather the ability to make extra cash.
I live in my base and didn't have to move when I got hired here. I commuted a whopping 3 months before getting a base of my choice. My family is all rooted here so I don't need to travel to see them.
As an FO here, playing the game, you can make well into 200's, with top end guys if the TA passes, will make close to if not over 300k towards the end of this contract given our work rules. And that's on the FO side.
So would I consider my career a failure because I'm at Southwest and not United or Delta or Fedex? Not by a long shot.
Some things to keep in mind too:
Our reserve lines are built to 15 days or 16 in a 31 day month. 18 days at other airlines.
Our bid lines are built up to 12 to 14 work days per month depending on how many days in the month. 15-16 days at other airlines.
Theres so much more to this business than upgrade times. Yeah, people can say what they want about this being a "regional" with Boeings... but unlike at the real regionals, I can make a damn fine living as an FO at this "regional" and enjoy my family and QOL. I've flown literally all over the world as a bizjet captain in my previous job for a number of years and missed out on a lot of quality time with kids and family... so being a "regional" pilot with a Southwest paycheck suits me just fine.
It's all really a matter of perspective.
BTW... voted NO on TA2.
I live in my base and didn't have to move when I got hired here. I commuted a whopping 3 months before getting a base of my choice. My family is all rooted here so I don't need to travel to see them.
As an FO here, playing the game, you can make well into 200's, with top end guys if the TA passes, will make close to if not over 300k towards the end of this contract given our work rules. And that's on the FO side.
So would I consider my career a failure because I'm at Southwest and not United or Delta or Fedex? Not by a long shot.
Some things to keep in mind too:
Our reserve lines are built to 15 days or 16 in a 31 day month. 18 days at other airlines.
Our bid lines are built up to 12 to 14 work days per month depending on how many days in the month. 15-16 days at other airlines.
Theres so much more to this business than upgrade times. Yeah, people can say what they want about this being a "regional" with Boeings... but unlike at the real regionals, I can make a damn fine living as an FO at this "regional" and enjoy my family and QOL. I've flown literally all over the world as a bizjet captain in my previous job for a number of years and missed out on a lot of quality time with kids and family... so being a "regional" pilot with a Southwest paycheck suits me just fine.
It's all really a matter of perspective.
BTW... voted NO on TA2.
10-31-2016 | 08:08 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,207
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From: CA
Literally thousands of applications on file and many actively seeking a position at SWA.
"Red-eyes"
No red eyes on the schedule at SWA.
"new code share
"No code share at SWA.
If you want to speculate, be my guest, but this T/A hasn't passed yet and using hyperbole in place of factual evidence is not going to win any arguments.
10-31-2016 | 08:17 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,655
Likes: 301
^^^^^^
Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years.
Delta is 4 mos in NYC on the -88. You can hold 717/-88 in ATL in a year or two...anywhere else it's 8-10+. Fedex is a yr on the 757 and after training is done will be more like 2-2.5. UPS doesn't have anywhere close to a 2 yr upgrade unless you're a scum mgt pilot off the street. UAL is around 8-10+ right now. AA is a year or less only on th E-190 in PHL...anywhere else is 10+.
Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.
We don't do redeyes. We have redeye language in the new TA but I don't see many being built simply because of the rest requirements afterward....they're inefficient and unproductive. RSV could use some tweaking but it's nowhere near as abusive as it was at RAH or many other regionals. I do PM's and usually get in around 9-1am...I've never started at 2am body clock time in the yr I've worked here. Hotels should be in a downtown location for longer overnights but I've had no problems with the Doubletree/Sheraton/Hyatt brands. I'll take our codeshare language over 400 RJ's any day of the week....read the contract comparison SWAPA put out and in work rules and other metrics we are better than pretty much every other airline. Some small ancillary things we don't have like parking and crew meals. Overall it's not the doom and gloom you made it out to be.
They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
I don't know anybody that thinks SWA is a low tier airline. Frontier maybe. SWA not really. The only people I know that went to Allegiant left a Regional and are looking to bail ASAP. I know very few who are going to stick it out there due to combative mgt and terrible work rules...you're home every night only if you choose to live in a base...it's not commutable at all. I don't know anyone staying at Frontier. Friends at Spirit seem happy with work rules but pay is terrible. JetBlue, Virgin, and Alaska all make less and have worse work rules.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
People aren't quitting here because of free parking. They're quitting because for the first time in 16 years every airline in the country is hiring and they live closer to another airline's base or they think they'll have an easier commute with a quicker upgrade. If you work here and don't like it, well DL has a 4 month upgrade if you want to sit RSV in NYC covering 3 airports.
Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years.
Delta is 4 mos in NYC on the -88. You can hold 717/-88 in ATL in a year or two...anywhere else it's 8-10+. Fedex is a yr on the 757 and after training is done will be more like 2-2.5. UPS doesn't have anywhere close to a 2 yr upgrade unless you're a scum mgt pilot off the street. UAL is around 8-10+ right now. AA is a year or less only on th E-190 in PHL...anywhere else is 10+.
Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share
horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.We don't do redeyes. We have redeye language in the new TA but I don't see many being built simply because of the rest requirements afterward....they're inefficient and unproductive. RSV could use some tweaking but it's nowhere near as abusive as it was at RAH or many other regionals. I do PM's and usually get in around 9-1am...I've never started at 2am body clock time in the yr I've worked here. Hotels should be in a downtown location for longer overnights but I've had no problems with the Doubletree/Sheraton/Hyatt brands. I'll take our codeshare language over 400 RJ's any day of the week....read the contract comparison SWAPA put out and in work rules and other metrics we are better than pretty much every other airline. Some small ancillary things we don't have like parking and crew meals. Overall it's not the doom and gloom you made it out to be.
They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
I don't know anybody that thinks SWA is a low tier airline. Frontier maybe. SWA not really. The only people I know that went to Allegiant left a Regional and are looking to bail ASAP. I know very few who are going to stick it out there due to combative mgt and terrible work rules...you're home every night only if you choose to live in a base...it's not commutable at all. I don't know anyone staying at Frontier. Friends at Spirit seem happy with work rules but pay is terrible. JetBlue, Virgin, and Alaska all make less and have worse work rules.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
People aren't quitting here because of free parking. They're quitting because for the first time in 16 years every airline in the country is hiring and they live closer to another airline's base or they think they'll have an easier commute with a quicker upgrade. If you work here and don't like it, well DL has a 4 month upgrade if you want to sit RSV in NYC covering 3 airports.
Added my thoughts....a little heavy on the doom and gloom...no airline is perfect and people will complain about something no matter where you are.
10-31-2016 | 08:30 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,553
Likes: 396
Agreed. Go peruse some of the other airline threads. If you live where you work or have an easy commute and don't care about having a fourth stripe on your shoulder (some guys just like being "in charge"), SWA is a great place.
10-31-2016 | 08:37 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
From: 737 CA
2017 Hiring Numbers?
Hmm, Allegiant's pay rates are competitive and they fly new equipment? Interesting. Weren't SWA pilots picketing all over the country and nearly willing to go on strike over the near equivalent of Allegiant's newly acquired "competitive pay rates"?
10-31-2016 | 08:38 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
From: BE350 PIC
The best airline is the one that hires you, unless you have multiple airlines to choose from..
As a guy on the outside looking in (and trying not to lick the window) I don't really see any of the "Majors" (Which to me includes, UPS, FedEx, SWA plus the legacies) as being a bad place. Other than HAL, first year pay is liveable at all of them, and you can at least hold reserve somewhere not across the country within a year or two at most.
Of course, as I'm currently living in a room the size of a prison cell that I share with three other dudes in Afghanistan, even bad hotels are an improvement.
I'd have come to SWA if they gave me a job offer after my interview. And in all likelyhood, as I got hit with an involuntary mobilization that would have started about four months in, for 16 months, odds of me ever jumping ship would have been low.
As a guy on the outside looking in (and trying not to lick the window) I don't really see any of the "Majors" (Which to me includes, UPS, FedEx, SWA plus the legacies) as being a bad place. Other than HAL, first year pay is liveable at all of them, and you can at least hold reserve somewhere not across the country within a year or two at most.
Of course, as I'm currently living in a room the size of a prison cell that I share with three other dudes in Afghanistan, even bad hotels are an improvement.
I'd have come to SWA if they gave me a job offer after my interview. And in all likelyhood, as I got hit with an involuntary mobilization that would have started about four months in, for 16 months, odds of me ever jumping ship would have been low.
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