2017 Hiring Numbers?
10-27-2016, 06:19 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Stupids? No way. That was a tough call. Some guys accepted recalls at NWA, only to get furloughed a second time. The economy was shaky, and fear was palpable.
Emerald Coast started doing Charlotte seminars in the ealry 2000s because SO many US Air guys were bailing for SWA, Jetblue, and FedEx. We had a steady stream of guys ready to go anywhere to get out. The fact a few years later they looked at trying to buy/merge with Delta let's you know how quickly things can change.
You seem like one of the more reasonable and level headed guys on these forums. Unlucky at times? Perhaps. A victim of the times? Sure. Stupid--no way. Its only an easy game when you are looking in the rear review mirror....
Emerald Coast started doing Charlotte seminars in the ealry 2000s because SO many US Air guys were bailing for SWA, Jetblue, and FedEx. We had a steady stream of guys ready to go anywhere to get out. The fact a few years later they looked at trying to buy/merge with Delta let's you know how quickly things can change.
You seem like one of the more reasonable and level headed guys on these forums. Unlucky at times? Perhaps. A victim of the times? Sure. Stupid--no way. Its only an easy game when you are looking in the rear review mirror....
10-30-2016, 09:04 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by Caveman
I wonder what it could be?
For a Aug 2016 new hire to achieve 60% seniority (approx junior CA award systemwide):
0% growth: 2029-11-24 (13 years 3 months)
1% growth: 2028-06-24 (11 years 10 months)
2% growth: 2026-12-24 (10 years 4 months)
For a Aug 2016 new hire to achieve 60% seniority (approx junior CA award systemwide):
0% growth: 2029-11-24 (13 years 3 months)
1% growth: 2028-06-24 (11 years 10 months)
2% growth: 2026-12-24 (10 years 4 months)
Spot on. Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years. Tough predicament for sure.
You would think this would cause the highly proactive and engaged leadership of SW (sarcasm) to get in front of this and make themselves more attractive. Nope. 4 years of fighting the pilots at every step and low balling at the negotiating table have eroded the only thing SW had going for it: mojo.
I'm told the new T/A will likely pass because pilots are war-weary and tired, but they're not happy and what's being offered is hardly competitive. On the hiring front, who in their right mind would choose SW over other alternatives? Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share
horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.Gone are the days when SW could arrogantly demand pilots pay $8K for their own training. You'd think the fact that SWA can no longer require a type rating would have been their wake up call. They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
Last edited by tyler durden; 10-30-2016 at 09:42 AM.
10-30-2016, 09:36 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by flyguy81
Sorry if it came off wrong....just tired of people asking me when I'm quitting to go to DL, etc.
For a good many people SWA isn't a stepping stone, it's a little aggravating when you walk into the lounge and people see your employee number and ask why you haven't quit yet.
For a good many people SWA isn't a stepping stone, it's a little aggravating when you walk into the lounge and people see your employee number and ask why you haven't quit yet.
Unfortunately for SW, yours might be a somewhat unique situation. Given the no-show and attrition rate, what meets your career needs and expectations appears to not fit those of others. i.e., the much larger number of pilots SW will need to fill vacancies created by growth and attrition.
10-30-2016, 10:11 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
Amen!
Don't forget that you're probably dealing with people whose careers haven't been affected by trivial things such as the 'lost decade' and they just don't get it.
Don't forget that you're probably dealing with people whose careers haven't been affected by trivial things such as the 'lost decade' and they just don't get it.
Southwest was once among my top choices. Recent changes have pushed them down below my top five list and I am willing to wait at my current airline until my phone rings for one of those top five. No sense starting somewhere only to leave a year later to
start all over. With the acceleration of hiring everywhere, it's only a matter of time
It's anyone's guess which way is the right way to go, and only on your retirement day will you be sure you made the right move.
Last edited by tyler durden; 10-30-2016 at 10:52 AM.
10-30-2016, 12:44 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,849
Originally Posted by tyler durden
Not at all, Fly. That has to be frustrating. You've found your niche in this crazy business, and that's awesome. Smile man, nothing better than confidence and happiness to answer that question. Don't let anyone frustrate you or worse, talk you out of that elusive place.
Unfortunately for SW, yours might be a somewhat unique situation. Given the no-show and attrition rate, what meets your career needs and expectations appears to not fit those of others. i.e., the much larger number of pilots SW will need to fill vacancies created by growth and attrition.
Unfortunately for SW, yours might be a somewhat unique situation. Given the no-show and attrition rate, what meets your career needs and expectations appears to not fit those of others. i.e., the much larger number of pilots SW will need to fill vacancies created by growth and attrition.
Now it's a pilot's market and people aren't married to an airline if they're new and will go wherever gives them the best QOL. I've heard people leaving UAL, DL, AA, SWA, etc for other airlines because they live in a competitor's hub.
I was fortunate to get a job with a airline based where I live. I'm ok with never flying a 787 to Tokyo or upgrading in 5 yrs. I'll watch my kids grow up and make good money while I'm at it. For me that's an acceptable trade off. YMMV
10-30-2016, 02:42 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,453
Originally Posted by tyler durden
^^^^^^
Spot on. Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years. Tough predicament for sure.
You would think this would cause the highly proactive and engaged leadership of SW (sarcasm) to get in front of this and make themselves more attractive. Nope. 4 years of fighting the pilots at every step and low balling at the negotiating table have eroded the only thing SW had going for it: mojo.
I'm told the new T/A will likely pass because pilots are war-weary and tired, but they're not happy and what's being offered is hardly competitive. On the hiring front, who in their right mind would choose SW over other alternatives? Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.
Gone are the days when SW could arrogantly demand pilots pay $8K for their own training. You'd think the fact that SWA can no longer require a type rating would have been their wake up call. They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
Spot on. Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years. Tough predicament for sure.
You would think this would cause the highly proactive and engaged leadership of SW (sarcasm) to get in front of this and make themselves more attractive. Nope. 4 years of fighting the pilots at every step and low balling at the negotiating table have eroded the only thing SW had going for it: mojo.
I'm told the new T/A will likely pass because pilots are war-weary and tired, but they're not happy and what's being offered is hardly competitive. On the hiring front, who in their right mind would choose SW over other alternatives? Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share
horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.Gone are the days when SW could arrogantly demand pilots pay $8K for their own training. You'd think the fact that SWA can no longer require a type rating would have been their wake up call. They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
Wow. Pretty doom and gloom TD. I am far from drinking the SWA kool aid, but as a junior FO line holder, life is ok. The checks still clear on the 5th and 20th, and I get the days off I need. I fought for this TA, voted no on the last one, and held a sign in Dallas. I think we have achieved a huge step forward considering the headwinds we faced.
I know I won't upgrade here in the next 8-9 years, but I have accepted that trade off for some positives that make this place a good fit for me. Sure, I could bail for Delta and be a reserve MD88 CA in NYC, but why? That sounds like the 7th circle of hell to me. I am sure it is great for the guys who chose it.
10-30-2016, 04:38 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 668
Originally Posted by tyler durden
Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
10-30-2016, 07:42 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,899
Originally Posted by tyler durden
^^^^^^
Spot on. Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years. Tough predicament for sure.
You would think this would cause the highly proactive and engaged leadership of SW (sarcasm) to get in front of this and make themselves more attractive. Nope. 4 years of fighting the pilots at every step and low balling at the negotiating table have eroded the only thing SW had going for it: mojo.
I'm told the new T/A will likely pass because pilots are war-weary and tired, but they're not happy and what's being offered is hardly competitive. On the hiring front, who in their right mind would choose SW over other alternatives? Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.
Gone are the days when SW could arrogantly demand pilots pay $8K for their own training. You'd think the fact that SWA can no longer require a type rating would have been their wake up call. They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
Spot on. Upgrade is a HUGE issue facing SW that unfortunately is out of anyone's hands. By comparison, FedEx, UPS and the majors are seeing upgrades ranging from 4 months to 2 years. Tough predicament for sure.
You would think this would cause the highly proactive and engaged leadership of SW (sarcasm) to get in front of this and make themselves more attractive. Nope. 4 years of fighting the pilots at every step and low balling at the negotiating table have eroded the only thing SW had going for it: mojo.
I'm told the new T/A will likely pass because pilots are war-weary and tired, but they're not happy and what's being offered is hardly competitive. On the hiring front, who in their right mind would choose SW over other alternatives? Red-eyes, stale 'LUV' culture, long hours with multiple legs, archaic and abusive reserve policies, starting too early (2am body clock), ending too late (most PMs end around or after midnight) , crappy/loud hotels, lack of competitive long term disability, new code share
horrible training (no type= up to 25% career impacting event failures) and pay/overtime (premium??) that falls well short of other majors, and you have a ship that sailed. An apples to apples comparison might align 737 pay to majors (for today), but it negates the income opportunities in WB aircraft and much quicker upgrades.Gone are the days when SW could arrogantly demand pilots pay $8K for their own training. You'd think the fact that SWA can no longer require a type rating would have been their wake up call. They are now seen as a lower tier choice and junior FOs are leaving in record numbers. Who would have thunk the day would come when SW was losing potential candidates to bottom-feeder ULCC's like Allegiant whose new pay scale is competitive, they're home every night, with quick upgrades, ample growth, and modern equipment.
If SW management expects to attract and keep pilots, it needs to drop its folksy, outdated and tired LUV approach and get serious about it's benefits package and compensation (especially FO years 1-6). From what I'm hearing, those are the year groups most vulnerable to attrition. Matters will likely get worse as hiring at majors accelerates due to retirements. If the trend continues, the hiring might not keep up with attrition.
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