You make a blanket statement that people who have previously flown long haul and say they don’t want to do it here are full of it and will all cave to a higher pay scale.

-People politely refute that.

You ask for reasons why.

-Reasons are politely given.

You childishly flip the conversation to whether the merits of your limited personal experience in international flying qualify you to make your original statement.

It’s not a p*ssing contest, there are people who have come here with cargo, charter, foreign and military experience. I’ve flown with guys with some really interesting backgrounds who have experience flying all over the planet. Almost every single one of them agrees they enjoy the ease of operations flying primarily domestically at NK. We knew what we were getting into coming here, what the company is.

The attitude isn’t about who is better than who, it’s about your asinine assertion that we don’t mean what we say because you have some fantasy idea about long haul ops.

All I’ve been trying to say is I bet if Spirit got widebody planes (I don’t think we actually would anytime soon) it would go senior because of the pay...I would be willing to bet money on it.

You are the one that came thumping your chest saying how all the flying we do here is a “cake walk” because you did a double butter fly approach that wasn’t in the FMS. Man turning that heading knob left and right a couple of extra times while doing an instrument procedure is intense bro!

And what was the other thing? Oh yeah, you landed at an airport where instead of landing at height above sea level you had to touchdown at 0. Man that’s a huge number, and it was metric so instead of 0 feet, it was 0 meters. Dang! That’s a game changer!!!

You’re conflating things.

The flying here is cake because it is cake, not because of anyone’s previous experience.

It’s not the wear and tear of long haul, and it’s not the 6-8 legs a day of the regionals. If you want to fly a lot, go for it. If you want to do one leg a day, or sit home, also an option. 95% of our flights are 1-3 hours. With the exception of the Vegas trips there is limited back side of the clock. Most of our international flights are dispatched under FAA rules. There are many more reasons why the flying here is easy, I’m not sure why that’s so offensive to you, but I see it as a good thing.

You’ve obviously never done true international flying particularly to places outside of Europe or you wouldn’t be having this argument.

The flying “here” is truly a cakewalk in comparison (which is a damn good thing in a way). For me it’s gotten rather boring as it’s just not that mentally stimulating or challenging.

I just have to keep telling myself that boring in aviation isn't necessarily bad.

Now I know why when seeing a particular Spirit pilot my body would involuntary begin walking backward and bowing. I’m cancelling my doctors appointments!

And I agree too, I think the flying here is easy.

What does anything on the last 3 pages have to do with a possible plane order? Serious thread drift...

Take it for what it’s worth, but just flew
With a 22 year CA. A close friend of his was also a long time senior CA here until age 65. His friend now works for the FAA. He says we are getting 50 next year. We were already slated for 20 or 21 so that’s an additional 30 airplanes.

He says 10 321s and the rest a mix of NEO and CEO.

Interestingly enough, in some email I believe (within the last few months) they said they are planning an additional 300 upgrades next year on-top of the 48/month they have going now.

Originally I think this hiring/upgrading was supposed to stop (slow down) after Q1 2020, but it appears it’s not going to. This would jive/make sense if we are getting another 30 or so airplanes next year.

The way this guy spoke was very matter of fact. He did not come across at all as someone just BSing.

I know the investors and TC got killed
For running lean, but this hiring and upgrading doesn’t make sense for just next years slated deliveries. I don’t know how something more isn’t coming.

Well they really don't have to do anything special if airlines keep going belly up in other parts of the world. Lots of gently used Airbuses going on the used market lately.

Now that’s some great intel! You never know. Part of me still hopes for an A220 order to replace the 319s but I understand there are benefits to keeping the commonality....

Spirit can't handle 50 A/C in one year. I watched them struggle to grow by 50 in 3 years during my time there.

Also jives with training trying to figure out how to do 70 new hires a month.

That’s the old Spirit. Soon we’ll best the place you left for; but I don’t know our rehire policies.

Are you really comparing how it use to be, to what it is now? Have you seen what's been done to the training department since you left? This is not the old Spirit where you get a rental car and drive to MIA or having just 2 Sim in FLL. I'll bet you never saw 48 upgrades and 63 NH in a month while you were here.

Not sure if this has already been covered, but why wouldn’t Spirit want to order the recently announced A220-300 LR (long range version) capable of 4,000+ mile range? With a very low CASM and this type of range (the ability to fly either short flights or very long flights efficiently), think of the possibilities for new route growth:

- FLL or MCO to almost anywhere in South America.
- DFW, LAS and anywhere on the West Coast to Hawaii

Looks like Moxy (David Neeleman’s new startup) plans to order 20 A220-300 LRs out of 60 total A220-300s. So, not all A220-300s need to be the LR version and they can still fly 3,400 miles (easy for transcon flights). Here’s the information I found online about the A220-300 LR version:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1431221 (copy and paste this link)

So, with the VERY low CASM (much better than an A319/320) and the range flexibility opening many new potential route pairings (especially in South America), why wouldn’t Spirit seriously consider the A220-300 and the A220-300 LR to replace older A319s and A320s?

No doubt JB is also watching this new LR version closely with their 70 A220-300 orders - and, based on Neeleman’s recent interviews, Moxy will probably push the envelope and try highly targeted long haul flights with it in addition to a mix of short and medium haul point-to-point flights with the A220-300 around the US. Neeleman has hinted that South America (to connect with his Brazilian airline Azul), Europe and Hawaii are possible A220-300 LR route connections from the US.

So, with the A319 NEO going nowhere, seems like the A220-300 (including the new LR version) would be an obvious replacement choice for the A319s and older A320s - right?

The new Spirit at 140 or so A/C cannot grow by 50 A/C in one year or maintain a pace of 48 Upgrades and 60+ New Hires per month. Certainly wish it was true and that they were capable, but I just don't see that as realistic. :cool:

:rolleyes::D

I’m sure its a coincidence today’s email looking for new LCAs.

Not saying it won’t have its challenges, but it is nearly a 2 month wait for class now.

I still have my AviationInterviews.com account. Guys interviewing with 30 in a session. I would assume there are more than 1 session a month.

This seems to be extreme overkill for getting yelled about running lean IMO.

Then again it is our CEO's first gig and he's running super scared right now...

I don’t think we were running 8-900 pilots lean. Something is cooking, and it’s not the delivery of 20 some odd planes next year.

I second this.... we ran lean. But not so lean to justify such an explosive change in hiring. Also, why type a bunch of pilots in the 320 if it is not gonna be 320’s or at least mostly 320’s? Just my two cents...

Most likely a concurrent new aircraft order or we scavenged a bunch of airframes off of <insert defunct airline here>.

Black helicopter angle involves gently used or undelivered Max’s for a fleet swap, or they’re getting crewing ratios up to snuff for M and A.

Do we know if the current hiring/upgrade numbers will continue past Q1 or Q2 2020? Perhaps they will slow after a few months.

They’re talking about it like it’s open ended.

Just playing devils advocate, but if we did get a new type
1) there’s a lot of lead time for an entry into service program, training instructors etc.
2) we wouldn’t get them all at once, even if it were a complete fleet replacement we would still be flying the bus for several years to come
3) obviously there would be a bid, new hire pilots wouldn’t automatically be typed in the new plane unless it went junior, and I’m sure there would be seat locks if the bus were to be phased out

Not saying you’re wrong about what will happen fleet-wise, but I don’t think what this wave of new hires are being trained on is the indicator.

True. The vast majority haven’t been hired yet. Wish they’d get on with the reveal/announcement that they keep pushing off for another quarter.

They want bodies fast, and fleet swaps don't happen fast, new type additions don't happen fast, and deliveries don't happen fast (unless the order was placed nearly 2 years ago by someone else).

More then likely we are striking deals for more second hand airbuses.

I would agree, otherwise they'd be hiring for a pool, not pumping them through ASAP.

I suspect they will slow after the new year (just my guess) again this hiring wave is a knee jerk reaction to being understaffed this spring/summer. I’d love to be wrong (I’d be happy to move up the seniority list) but I’m also realistic and haven’t drank Any kool-aid.


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Seems to be the pattern the last few years.

They announced this kind of hiring through next year, something like 600 NHs in the next 12 months is what the email said

Did anyone see that Embraer E2 at FLL? I know Embraer has a big facility there too. Maybe another look for Spirit?

Ted said no embraer at the last upgrade class. He said that we were “in the bottom of the 9th” on announcing an order and that Airbus was very nervous. Take that fwiw.


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According to him in a QUARTERLY EARNINGS CALL!!! we would be announcing an order end of August or beginning of September. Our stock price after that should tell you everything you need to know about what Wall Street thinks of that.

I don’t think wall street cares about the order.... the pilots do. Wall Street doesn’t like the meltdowns .


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Very much this. In and of itself, a large airplane order represents a large amount of debt on the balance sheet.

It’s the airline equivalent of building a new factory or opening a bunch of new retail stores. Growth is good, as long as that growth is profitable at the same time.

Wall Street cares about revenue growth. A new airplane order would indicate Spirit actually has a plan beyond the next few years (as current orders continue to be delivered). My ongoing concern relates to a potential MAX order which would SUCK for both passengers (the Airbus is more comfortable than the 737 tube) and for crews (5-6 hour transcon flights in a 737 cockpit would be torture - ask any SWA pilot). Crossing my fingers the MAX theory/possibility is FALSE!

If we get the Max, it’s because it was a good deal, which will be good for investors. As far as comfort, they are comparable from a passenger standpoint. For the crews, it’s a different story.


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To that end, I would rather fly a 737-200 than a max. Unless there's an MCAS "Pull to Remove ECU" option, it's going to be hard to sell a pilot community that the bird is safe.

I'm liking the comment a few above about the boss saying we're in the ninth inning though. Naive? perhaps. Nothing in aviation gets done on time though.