Spirit May 2019 hiring
08-13-2019 | 10:01 AM
#291
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 813
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Quoting Confucius to avoid answering a simple question is Sophistry, not revealing ancient wisdom.
Let’s do a what if:
What if a NMB mediator came to the conclusion that since senior pilots at an airline believe $57 an hour is an appropriate price for newbies there versus say $82 an hour at SWA, the pilot group itself had defined their worth as $57/82 or about 70% of that of the SWA newbies, that it would be appropriate to hold all pilots at that airline to 70% of the corresponding SWA payscale.
Would that strike you as reasonable? Or better yet, if your management made that argument to the NMB? Would you agree with it?
Let’s do a what if:
What if a NMB mediator came to the conclusion that since senior pilots at an airline believe $57 an hour is an appropriate price for newbies there versus say $82 an hour at SWA, the pilot group itself had defined their worth as $57/82 or about 70% of that of the SWA newbies, that it would be appropriate to hold all pilots at that airline to 70% of the corresponding SWA payscale.
Would that strike you as reasonable? Or better yet, if your management made that argument to the NMB? Would you agree with it?
Not even close to how it works. The NMB does not care HOW you get to an agreement, they are there to facilitate as a mediator to an agreement. They cant dictate "this is the ratio you will use..."
So let me ask..you regional gig, Compass, offers signing bonuses. How much did the pilots have to give back in their contract with concessions to pay for those signing bonuses? Nothing, right? The signing bonuses are a factor of getting butts like yours, in the right seats of those sweet sweet 175s. It wasn't the responsibility of the pilots to negotiate something away, to get those bonuses done. The company had to do it for staffing.
So at Spirit, I wanted the NC to get a livable wage for first year and then a nice bump for second year. Is that what we got, yup. As been said, much higher than the last contract (and the contract before that as well). Guys who want to work here but live in high cost of living states like California, sorry. Thats the choice when you live in a high cost of living state, those views and nice weather days have a cost.
If the NC came in and wanted more for 1st year, more than what they got, they would have taken it from another area, this is clear as clear can be and has been explained over and over again by the MEC. When the NC wanted to close the industry leading pay slope in longevity, they got some, but not all. It all has a cost.
So when it comes down to it, I would rather see the extra money go to say 5th year CA pay vs 1st year FO pay. I would rather see it go to 2nd year FO pay, 3rd year FO pay etc....guys with skin in the game and are here to make it a career and not a place holder while their A320 type rating ink is drying on their resume for Delta.
If you are someone who can only focus on 1st year pay for a career job, then what can I say, I dont trust your decision making at that point and rather not have you aboard anyways. Tough talk, yup, but it's true.
If the company needs to fill FO classes and the hourly rate isnt cutting it, they need to get a signing bonus or better yet offer a MOU to the union to raise pay. We still have some big holes to fix in the contract and increasing FO pay to $90/hr, so Spirit can staff that next order, isnt priority one as far as im concerned.
For those who think we wont hire "safe" pilots at our current rate...all speculation and assumptions. Airlines all around pay a lot less than we do and still manage to not ball up planes into mountains. So where as its a nice talking point, there is nothing to show that a pilot making $60k a year for their first year is going to be a safety issue, just as a $38hr pilot 3 years ago wasn't crashing planes. Just as you, a Compass pilot who makes regional FO wages, hasn't crashed yet. Go talk to the UAL CAs why they worked at CAL back in 2007 with no health care for the first year, and $25/hr pay to fly a 737. Ask them if they think its "criminal" as you ask for their jumpseat.
FO pay first year will be $58.21 next March. With the 321 override still around 2%, thats $59.37/hr. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying. If 2 months training pay and 10 months at $59.37 doesnt pay the bills, dont apply. I totally get it. This job isnt guaranteed and it sure isnt something that owes any of us anything.
08-13-2019 | 10:02 AM
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Likes: 0
They weren’t even dress pants. Pretty much faded blue jeans. Also you have the option to pay roll deduct any uniform item at a manageable rate.
You can’t tell me someone can’t afford to payroll deduct 2 pairs of pants. They could even use their old pilot shirts. So really all a new hire needs to spend to look halfway professional is a whole 130 bucks which can be payroll deducted. When our pilots look like a joke in public it’s hard to turn around the perception of our airline being a joke.
You can’t tell me someone can’t afford to payroll deduct 2 pairs of pants. They could even use their old pilot shirts. So really all a new hire needs to spend to look halfway professional is a whole 130 bucks which can be payroll deducted. When our pilots look like a joke in public it’s hard to turn around the perception of our airline being a joke.
08-13-2019 | 10:11 AM
#293
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 813
Likes: 0
Some kind of entitlement to say "If you dont give me this for free, I wont comply."
Do professionals in other professions say "If you dont give me a suit, I wont comply?" Nope, just pilots who would rather not comply and wear dockers instead of being an adult and wearing the correct clothes.
08-13-2019 | 10:18 AM
#294
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
Spoken like someone who has 1.5 years into this career....
Not even close to how it works. The NMB does not care HOW you get to an agreement, they are there to facilitate as a mediator to an agreement. They cant dictate "this is the ratio you will use..."
So let me ask..you regional gig, Compass, offers signing bonuses. How much did the pilots have to give back in their contract with concessions to pay for those signing bonuses? Nothing, right? The signing bonuses are a factor of getting butts like yours, in the right seats of those sweet sweet 175s. It wasn't the responsibility of the pilots to negotiate something away, to get those bonuses done. The company had to do it for staffing.
So at Spirit, I wanted the NC to get a livable wage for first year and then a nice bump for second year. Is that what we got, yup. As been said, much higher than the last contract (and the contract before that as well). Guys who want to work here but live in high cost of living states like California, sorry. Thats the choice when you live in a high cost of living state, those views and nice weather days have a cost.
If the NC came in and wanted more for 1st year, more than what they got, they would have taken it from another area, this is clear as clear can be and has been explained over and over again by the MEC. When the NC wanted to close the industry leading pay slope in longevity, they got some, but not all. It all has a cost.
So when it comes down to it, I would rather see the extra money go to say 5th year CA pay vs 1st year FO pay. I would rather see it go to 2nd year FO pay, 3rd year FO pay etc....guys with skin in the game and are here to make it a career and not a place holder while their A320 type rating ink is drying on their resume for Delta.
If you are someone who can only focus on 1st year pay for a career job, then what can I say, I dont trust your decision making at that point and rather not have you aboard anyways. Tough talk, yup, but it's true.
If the company needs to fill FO classes and the hourly rate isnt cutting it, they need to get a signing bonus or better yet offer a MOU to the union to raise pay. We still have some big holes to fix in the contract and increasing FO pay to $90/hr, so Spirit can staff that next order, isnt priority one as far as im concerned.
For those who think we wont hire "safe" pilots at our current rate...all speculation and assumptions. Airlines all around pay a lot less than we do and still manage to not ball up planes into mountains. So where as its a nice talking point, there is nothing to show that a pilot making $60k a year for their first year is going to be a safety issue, just as a $38hr pilot 3 years ago wasn't crashing planes. Just as you, a Compass pilot who makes regional FO wages, hasn't crashed yet. Go talk to the UAL CAs why they worked at CAL back in 2007 with no health care for the first year, and $25/hr pay to fly a 737. Ask them if they think its "criminal" as you ask for their jumpseat.
FO pay first year will be $58.21 next March. With the 321 override still around 2%, thats $59.37/hr. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying. If 2 months training pay and 10 months at $59.37 doesnt pay the bills, dont apply. I totally get it. This job isnt guaranteed and it sure isnt something that owes any of us anything.
Not even close to how it works. The NMB does not care HOW you get to an agreement, they are there to facilitate as a mediator to an agreement. They cant dictate "this is the ratio you will use..."
So let me ask..you regional gig, Compass, offers signing bonuses. How much did the pilots have to give back in their contract with concessions to pay for those signing bonuses? Nothing, right? The signing bonuses are a factor of getting butts like yours, in the right seats of those sweet sweet 175s. It wasn't the responsibility of the pilots to negotiate something away, to get those bonuses done. The company had to do it for staffing.
So at Spirit, I wanted the NC to get a livable wage for first year and then a nice bump for second year. Is that what we got, yup. As been said, much higher than the last contract (and the contract before that as well). Guys who want to work here but live in high cost of living states like California, sorry. Thats the choice when you live in a high cost of living state, those views and nice weather days have a cost.
If the NC came in and wanted more for 1st year, more than what they got, they would have taken it from another area, this is clear as clear can be and has been explained over and over again by the MEC. When the NC wanted to close the industry leading pay slope in longevity, they got some, but not all. It all has a cost.
So when it comes down to it, I would rather see the extra money go to say 5th year CA pay vs 1st year FO pay. I would rather see it go to 2nd year FO pay, 3rd year FO pay etc....guys with skin in the game and are here to make it a career and not a place holder while their A320 type rating ink is drying on their resume for Delta.
If you are someone who can only focus on 1st year pay for a career job, then what can I say, I dont trust your decision making at that point and rather not have you aboard anyways. Tough talk, yup, but it's true.
If the company needs to fill FO classes and the hourly rate isnt cutting it, they need to get a signing bonus or better yet offer a MOU to the union to raise pay. We still have some big holes to fix in the contract and increasing FO pay to $90/hr, so Spirit can staff that next order, isnt priority one as far as im concerned.
For those who think we wont hire "safe" pilots at our current rate...all speculation and assumptions. Airlines all around pay a lot less than we do and still manage to not ball up planes into mountains. So where as its a nice talking point, there is nothing to show that a pilot making $60k a year for their first year is going to be a safety issue, just as a $38hr pilot 3 years ago wasn't crashing planes. Just as you, a Compass pilot who makes regional FO wages, hasn't crashed yet. Go talk to the UAL CAs why they worked at CAL back in 2007 with no health care for the first year, and $25/hr pay to fly a 737. Ask them if they think its "criminal" as you ask for their jumpseat.
FO pay first year will be $58.21 next March. With the 321 override still around 2%, thats $59.37/hr. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying. If 2 months training pay and 10 months at $59.37 doesnt pay the bills, dont apply. I totally get it. This job isnt guaranteed and it sure isnt something that owes any of us anything.
(3*$1,750 new hire training pay) + (9*57.07*72) = $42,231.36
Source: 3.D.1, 3.A, 4.A
Don't fool people into thinking they're going to pull 60k. It's just not going to happen.
Last edited by onedolla; 08-13-2019 at 10:19 AM. Reason: math
08-13-2019 | 10:21 AM
#295
Perennial Reserve
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 14,246
Likes: 257
Spoken like someone who has 1.5 years into this career....
Not even close to how it works. The NMB does not care HOW you get to an agreement, they are there to facilitate as a mediator to an agreement. They cant dictate "this is the ratio you will use..."
So let me ask..you regional gig, Compass, offers signing bonuses. How much did the pilots have to give back in their contract with concessions to pay for those signing bonuses? Nothing, right? The signing bonuses are a factor of getting butts like yours, in the right seats of those sweet sweet 175s. It wasn't the responsibility of the pilots to negotiate something away, to get those bonuses done. The company had to do it for staffing.
So at Spirit, I wanted the NC to get a livable wage for first year and then a nice bump for second year. Is that what we got, yup. As been said, much higher than the last contract (and the contract before that as well). Guys who want to work here but live in high cost of living states like California, sorry. Thats the choice when you live in a high cost of living state, those views and nice weather days have a cost.
If the NC came in and wanted more for 1st year, more than what they got, they would have taken it from another area, this is clear as clear can be and has been explained over and over again by the MEC. When the NC wanted to close the industry leading pay slope in longevity, they got some, but not all. It all has a cost.
So when it comes down to it, I would rather see the extra money go to say 5th year CA pay vs 1st year FO pay. I would rather see it go to 2nd year FO pay, 3rd year FO pay etc....guys with skin in the game and are here to make it a career and not a place holder while their A320 type rating ink is drying on their resume for Delta.
If you are someone who can only focus on 1st year pay for a career job, then what can I say, I dont trust your decision making at that point and rather not have you aboard anyways. Tough talk, yup, but it's true.
If the company needs to fill FO classes and the hourly rate isnt cutting it, they need to get a signing bonus or better yet offer a MOU to the union to raise pay. We still have some big holes to fix in the contract and increasing FO pay to $90/hr, so Spirit can staff that next order, isnt priority one as far as im concerned.
For those who think we wont hire "safe" pilots at our current rate...all speculation and assumptions. Airlines all around pay a lot less than we do and still manage to not ball up planes into mountains. So where as its a nice talking point, there is nothing to show that a pilot making $60k a year for their first year is going to be a safety issue, just as a $38hr pilot 3 years ago wasn't crashing planes. Just as you, a Compass pilot who makes regional FO wages, hasn't crashed yet.
Not even close to how it works. The NMB does not care HOW you get to an agreement, they are there to facilitate as a mediator to an agreement. They cant dictate "this is the ratio you will use..."
So let me ask..you regional gig, Compass, offers signing bonuses. How much did the pilots have to give back in their contract with concessions to pay for those signing bonuses? Nothing, right? The signing bonuses are a factor of getting butts like yours, in the right seats of those sweet sweet 175s. It wasn't the responsibility of the pilots to negotiate something away, to get those bonuses done. The company had to do it for staffing.
So at Spirit, I wanted the NC to get a livable wage for first year and then a nice bump for second year. Is that what we got, yup. As been said, much higher than the last contract (and the contract before that as well). Guys who want to work here but live in high cost of living states like California, sorry. Thats the choice when you live in a high cost of living state, those views and nice weather days have a cost.
If the NC came in and wanted more for 1st year, more than what they got, they would have taken it from another area, this is clear as clear can be and has been explained over and over again by the MEC. When the NC wanted to close the industry leading pay slope in longevity, they got some, but not all. It all has a cost.
So when it comes down to it, I would rather see the extra money go to say 5th year CA pay vs 1st year FO pay. I would rather see it go to 2nd year FO pay, 3rd year FO pay etc....guys with skin in the game and are here to make it a career and not a place holder while their A320 type rating ink is drying on their resume for Delta.
If you are someone who can only focus on 1st year pay for a career job, then what can I say, I dont trust your decision making at that point and rather not have you aboard anyways. Tough talk, yup, but it's true.
If the company needs to fill FO classes and the hourly rate isnt cutting it, they need to get a signing bonus or better yet offer a MOU to the union to raise pay. We still have some big holes to fix in the contract and increasing FO pay to $90/hr, so Spirit can staff that next order, isnt priority one as far as im concerned.
For those who think we wont hire "safe" pilots at our current rate...all speculation and assumptions. Airlines all around pay a lot less than we do and still manage to not ball up planes into mountains. So where as its a nice talking point, there is nothing to show that a pilot making $60k a year for their first year is going to be a safety issue, just as a $38hr pilot 3 years ago wasn't crashing planes. Just as you, a Compass pilot who makes regional FO wages, hasn't crashed yet.
I would say the “a living wage” issue is subject to interpretation. Is $15 an hour a “living wage”?
Assuming what you desire in a new hire is someone with meaningful regional experience, one must ask what $57 an hour buys, especially after a couple of months of that first year being training pay which will reduce the overall pay for the first year considerably. It will make the pay less than most first year regional FOs get (counting their signing bonuses and training pay) and less than most second year FO’s get and for damn sure less than the average regional captain gets.
So yeah, if that’s what your MEC is shooting for, telling new hires your pilot group values them less than regional management values their new hires, you will be successful. Will you still get people? Oh h€|| yeah, Atlas is still getting newbies to sit in the right seat of a 747 for $40k first year. Are those the people you really want? Time will tell I guess.
As for what arbitrators will and will not order, I’d suggest you talk to some of the older Alaska pilots about the Kasher ruling.
But you at least had the cojones to state your case, not bluster, demean (very much anyway
) or evade. Though our opinions differ I respect you for that.
Last edited by Excargodog; 08-13-2019 at 10:31 AM.
08-13-2019 | 10:51 AM
#296
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 813
Likes: 0
A rational defense of low first year pay. While I may not agree with it - in fact I don’t since to me it sort of still boils down to a defense of avarice by the senior people that can only undermine pilot group unity - I can at least admire someone willing to toss his opinion out for public consumption rather than hide behind Sophist diversions and ad hominem attacks.
I would say the “a living wage” issue is subject to interpretation. Is $15 an hour a “living wage”?
Assuming what you desire in a new hire is someone with meaningful regional experience, one must ask what $57 an hour buys, especially after a couple of months of that first year being training pay which will reduce the overall pay for the first year considerably. It will make the pay less than most first year regional FOs get (counting their signing bonuses and training pay) and less than most second year FO’s get and for damn sure less than the average regional captain gets.
So yeah, if that’s what your MEC is shooting for, telling new hires your pilot group values them less than regional management values their new hires, you will be successful. Will you still get people? Oh h€|| yeah, Atlas is still getting newbies to sit in the right seat of a 747 for $40k first year. Are those the people you really want? Time will tell I guess.
As for what arbitrators will and will not order, I’d suggest you talk to some of the older Alaska pilots about the Kasher ruling.
But you at least had the cojones to state your case, not bluster, demean (very much anyway ) or evade. Though our opinions differ I respect you for that.
I would say the “a living wage” issue is subject to interpretation. Is $15 an hour a “living wage”?
Assuming what you desire in a new hire is someone with meaningful regional experience, one must ask what $57 an hour buys, especially after a couple of months of that first year being training pay which will reduce the overall pay for the first year considerably. It will make the pay less than most first year regional FOs get (counting their signing bonuses and training pay) and less than most second year FO’s get and for damn sure less than the average regional captain gets.
So yeah, if that’s what your MEC is shooting for, telling new hires your pilot group values them less than regional management values their new hires, you will be successful. Will you still get people? Oh h€|| yeah, Atlas is still getting newbies to sit in the right seat of a 747 for $40k first year. Are those the people you really want? Time will tell I guess.
As for what arbitrators will and will not order, I’d suggest you talk to some of the older Alaska pilots about the Kasher ruling.
But you at least had the cojones to state your case, not bluster, demean (very much anyway
) or evade. Though our opinions differ I respect you for that.Regardless of what people think about "We should have got....," never once did I hear anyone say on a conference call that we needed "FO pay at $90/hr" or "Legacy FO pay" or anything of the sort. Guys were calling for higher pay for senior FOs, junior CAs, a 12 year pay scale, increased top end pay, retirement that doesn't involve a match, true LTD, trip and duty rigs, etc.
Hyperbole of "worth less than what regional management views pilots" is a joke. Nobody values you less than your regional overlords over there at Hula's Compass.
Im sure you are trying to get out of there and are angry that Spirit doesnt pay $80/hr first year because you would like to come here. I assume 1.5 years in the right seat at a regional isnt blowing down doors at Legacy carriers. You and everyone else has choices to make. If you dont like the first year pay, dont apply (although im betting you have because its still more than Compass and our jets are huuuge). In the end, I dont care. Really don't; guys will apply or not, planes will fly or not, and the world goes round and round.
08-13-2019 | 10:58 AM
#297
Perennial Reserve
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 14,246
Likes: 257
Hyperbole of "worth less than what regional management views pilots" is a joke. Nobody values you less than your regional overlords over there at Hula's Compass.
Im sure you are trying to get out of there and are angry that Spirit doesnt pay $80/hr first year because you would like to come here. I assume 1.5 years in the right seat at a regional isnt blowing down doors at Legacy carriers. You and everyone else has choices to make. If you dont like the first year pay, dont apply (although im betting you have because its still more than Compass and our jets are huuuge). In the end, I dont care.
But at least you had the cojones to attempt a defense of paying your newbies less than almost any regional is currently paying their new hires. Better than just dodging still.
08-13-2019 | 11:14 AM
#298
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 813
Likes: 0
Keep building that flight time, upgrade, and apply to a legacy so that you dont even need to worry about Spirit pay.
08-13-2019 | 12:53 PM
#299
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
I’ve been at this game a long time. When I apply, interview and get hired at any company, I know what I’m signing up for. I make my decision based on the current contract. If I’m not willing to accept that, I move on to other options. I’ve been through these cycles of booming or bust many times now. Do I feel like the pay could have been better? Yes. But I came under the last contact and was happy to come here. I didn’t come here thinking, if I can just make it to the next contact, everything will change. It is what it is. This bickering isn’t going to change anything. Just like all the guessing and theories about a possible aircraft order. Spirit will do what they want and think is best. It doesn’t matter what we think would be best. Everyone needs to chill out, we can’t go back in time and change it. Spirit isn’t reading this stuff and saying, oh crap, we better do what was posted on APC or we’re in trouble
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