When Jetblue reached their AIP a week after ours, basically one upping us, then yes we should have gone back immediately and asked for more.

And since you asked about leaving...

I didn't leave because I was one of the naive dumb@$$es who bought into the bites of the apple nonsense and "building our legacy." I took them at their word for it, and I actually believed that B6 management had honest intentions of merging the two companies. Obviously that ended up being about as far from the truth as one can get.

Definitely learned my lesson!

What I’m saying is 1604 pilots voted yes for a TA that affected what 3300? Pilots on property, many of which left because of said TA, INCLUDING one who brought the TA to the pilot group.

It wasn’t nonsense. We were merging with Jetblue, which meant a joint CBA was imminent. The CBA we signed was intended to be a stopgap to put us on better footing until the JCBA was negotiated and completed. That contract was the prize. It was always a risk that the merger would fall through. What wasn’t planned for is the company continuing to hemorrhage cash at an ungodly rate that continues to this day.

Spirit Airlines lost around $2314 in the minute it took you to type this, based on previous quarter losses.

The CBA was never about being a stop gap for a more favorable SLI in the merger, which is what we were led to believe.

That CBA was the bare minimum that management had to agree to in hopes of keeping the mass exodus at bay, compounded with the dangling of the merger carrot. ALPA played right into it.

Had we asked for more and management said take a hike, there wouldn't have been an airline left to merge with due to the wave of our CAs punching out (which would have been most of us, but two years ago instead of now).

Anyway, it is what it is and we didn't know what we didn't know.

Management giving in so easily to our last TA, which is what happened, should have been a red flag.

You sound so certain of these things. And now it’s a badge of honor for you to never forget. This sounds very ignorant. You’re imagining events happening a certain way that you have no idea about and then complaining about them as if it’s true.

It's even worse! It's 69% of the voters, not 69% of the eligible voters!
In the last 5 elections the president was voted in by (very rough estimate) 20% of the population, 35% of the eligible voters, and %50 of the voters. ( I know, electoral college).
Saying it was a minority that got the win is a total failure of understanding how elections work. I have often wondered why we don't let new hires vote, but we let people in their last year vote. But with half of the new hires leaving within 2 years, it is hard to call them more invested.

Nah, read the last part of my post which I edited. We didn't know what we didn't know at the time.

Nothing wrong with reflecting on the past in hopes of learning for the next go around.

I’m talking about your certainty that the TA was never about being a stop gap, it was only about stemming attrition, ALPA playing right into “their” hand. They would have given us more, because otherwise Spirit wouldn’t be around. Giving in to our demands being a red flag. This is the stuff that you are imagining to be true. You have no way of knowing these things. And now you’re using the things that you imagined to be true to be the things from which to learn.

Nothing wrong with learning from the past. You are not doing that. You are “learning” from imagination. You can’t insert opinions and biases as fact. You are keeping the answer of “we should have voted no” and now just searching for evidence to support it.

I mean, looking back on it that's pretty much exactly what happened from my pov. Attrition was the front and center reason for the expedited TA, and they made that well known to everyone. It wasn't some secret that management was keeping from everyone.

At the time it didn't seem that bad, and I still voted no because I thought we could have done better, but looking back we definitely got played by Ted and Co.

It's a hard call to make without 20/20 hindsight.

We (AS) were in a similar position, but the TA was a lot closer to big three and it passed with a solid margin.

I was actually confident that the folks who said "we can do better" were correct. But in hindsight if we had turned it down, we might have just been wrapping up TA 2.0 in late 2023 / early 2024... if it wasn't finished on the day the door plug came off, the company would have picked their offer up off the table and walked out of the room, never to return.

We'd still be in negotiations today, with a 2017 pay scale and no PBS, attrition halted, and over-staffed. Oopsie.

And with NK/F9 talks on again, NK securing gains in 2023 while F9 remains amendable, would help NK pilots on any SLI/JCBA.

Alpa merger policy will go into play. Pay rates will be raised at F9 to the current NK pay scale. Then the JCBA will be negotiated. Pay rates have nothing to do with how a seniority list will be integrated. When Ual Cal merged and Dal/ Northwest. Pay was brought up to the higher or the two. Then a JCBA was negotiated with a seniority list. JCBA usually is held up by one pilot group not the company. The company will want the synergies of a combined airline as fast as possible.

You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried

F9 has no obligation to raise rates to NK rates prior to a JCBA (ask NK pilots about the second bite)

In a SLI the arbitrator will weigh all equities brought in by the pilot groups, pay is indeed a factor (see JBLU not wanting to raise NK to their rates for this reason)

The JCBA will not be negotiated with the ISL, they are separate and separate for a reason. You can not have the ISL prior to approval of the JCBA. The JCBA has to come first.

As far as JCBA goes, NK pilots will recognize it as familiar to what we had with JBLU. We wanted to get snapups to JBLU rates, JBLU management and their MEC didn’t want that. So you’re hoping Franke wants to give you guys a snap up, prior to a JCBA, which will likely cost him more money in a JCBA because F9 is now starting from a higher point. Hardly likely

Absolutely no way both pilot groups will be brought to the same pay scale prior to a JCBA being reached.

100%. If Robin Hayes didn’t want to do it, no way Franke and Biffle want to do it.

No. ALPA policy isn't remotely able to force an airline to unilaterally raise rates pending a JCBA, unless one of the CBA's has scope language to that effect.

The JCBA is where the three parties reconcile the two CBA's into one, and that includes the pay tables in the CBA's.

I've experienced two such mergers in the last decade. No raises until after JCBA.

It will normally be negotiated after the financial M&A is complete, ie the check clears and the stock is transferred. Everything RLA is status quo in the meantime. Each labor group operates separately under their own CBA (including pay tables).

That's true.

I don't think that happened. If it did, it was either specified in one of the CBA's (possible) or a gift from the the company (doubtful).

Does NK or F9 have a CBA provision that specifies immediate snap up upon merger transaction?

That's true.

You are incorrect in thinking pay rates do not factor into the construction of the integrated seniority list.

Ok, they do factor but to a very negligible degree in this kind of merger (NB/NB).

The "career expectations" component of the merger policy is vastly weighted for three things:

1. Widebodies
2. Widebodies
3. Widebodies

After the WB pilots get theirs, you'll see a little DOH weighting if there's any disparity between the lists. That will factor (deduct) furlough time, for those who have/had it.

After all that, maybe some consideration for pre-JCBA pay scale. Just maybe.

I'd love to be proven wrong on that, and I'll come back and correct the record if I am. I'll know before you guys do.

#EXPECTATIONMANAGEMENT

Pay disparity relating to differnt hourly rates is not a part of career expectations, like you said thats more dealing with heavy/nb. Its dealing with the equities each group brings in, and that those will be considered as well as the "ALPA 3" factors to be considered as well. Pay rates are equities brought in and referenced in the major ALPA mergers

Delta/Nw this was addressed as NW pilots would see higher pay from the merger because of the equities brought in by the DAL contract, "including the contract improvements that one pilot group will gain due to the merger.


Airways/American West-"taking into account in
balancing the equities the gains to US Airways pilots from America West’s higher pay
rates and better work rules"

Heck, even Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan addressed the fact that Pinnacle and Colgan pilots would benefit from the higher CRJ900 rates in their contract

The merger policy requires all equities to be weighed unique to the groups. One group making what, 20% more top end, will surely be raised by the NK merger committee and laywers.

F9 wll be able to use the equities of "we are the acquiring company," which they will. Both sides will use what they have. But this is why JBLU did not want NK pilots snapped up and why NK pilots wont advocate for F9 pilots to be snapped up

The weighting for pay disparity will be negligible. If you're NK don't expect a 15% boost in seniority.

After being offset by BK, it could be a wash.

Ah, but that isn’t wasn’t you said. You said it won’t factor, and now you’re backtracking against what you said. And nobody claimed a 15% boost, don’t try to straw man your way out of this .

And the amount it will factor is unknown by you or me, and will be decided by an arbitrator(s)
You have no idea how much it will be weighed but it will be weighed.

Not trying to bust chops but you’re always way too eager to hop on any topic and lay down “facts” that are not facts at all

It's not facts, we'll know the facts when and if the deal is done.

It's my opinion based on living through it recently. Trying to help cage some folk's gyros about what's "fair" vs. how merger policy has been interpreted and precedent set in recent similar mergers.

I know that the original announcement was for 330 furloughs on last Friday. Did that get reduced at all either by voluntary furloughs or attrition by folks leaving for other carriers?

Yes. Something like 60 voluntary and another 60 cancellations before the most recent cancellation bid last week.

100 furloughs cancelled and 36 downgrades cancelled.

ORD alone, at least 10 Captains are leaving in the next 30 days plus a 14 year+ check airmen. Soon, the blind leading the blind, controlled by a former glorified part 141 instructor and an airbus expert w/no line experince.

Currently showing 63 "unfilled" 320 First Officer positions in ORD on the vacancy bid for UA that closes on Tuesday. So, if the ORD folks are coming to UA, it looks pretty good for getting an ORD slot on the 320.

Also unfilled 320 FOs out in SFO

The 737 FOs unfilleds are in EWR, LAS, LAX and SFO for those that care. DEN and IAH still going super junior, but nothing unfilled.

No "unfilled" Captain slots for awhile. I guess you can never say never as far as that happening again, but that ship has certainly sailed for the time being.

Similar situation for us in DFW I know 8 captains who have start dates late Feb with a few more waiting on a class.

and 60 percent of DFW FO’s say they have CJOs and are waiting

Why buy spirit with its negative view by the traveling public when you can hire their pilots and get everything else once they liquidate. I'm sure part of the company will be bought off by F9 or the likes.. but realistically, the parts are worth more than than the sum of the whole.. I just don't see a legacy or even SWA wanting NK as a whole. Obviously I do not make any decisions greater than, "start two or single engine taxi?"

true. you should put a direct call into Franke and let him know that his latest moves make no sense.

Exactly. If you’re DFW based and you’re not gone by March you’re silly minded; thx for being smart and hopefully you’ve boarded that life raft!

If Frontiers rep is so much better than spirit, then if they buy it on the cheap, Frontier will get first dibs on ALL of NK's assets (planes, slots, employees) to immediately expand. They paint animals on the tails of the planes they keep, and sell off anything that they don't want. If/when NK goes to liquidation, it's a free for all on the open market for everything.

There are lots of reasons for why NK could theoretically be acquired in BK, but most of them will be lost on the average line pilot pretending to be the Temu version of an airline CEO.

Possibly everyone’s opinion comes from there biases of where they are in there career

Guys with CJOs or who have left think its over for spirit

Guys who are sticking around hope spirit will be fine

truth be told no one knows

If past performances predict future results, current Spirit management could screw it either way

I always love the mentality of, just because it’s good for you, everyone else us stupid if it’s not good for them.

^^^ This 1000 times!

Well said, thank you!

Glad someone finally said it. I couldnt agree with this more!

Attention all Spirit barnacles! The USS Spirit Ship is soon to be dry docked and scrapped. Threatening a sinking has not worked on you, unlatch while you still have time you lazy DFW invertebrates!