History Repeats itself with RPC
06-06-2011 | 01:27 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 0
. . .
One could write in ALPA, but then the Major vs. Regional mentality applies by which there is always a conflict of interest in bargaining (see above). . . .
Or, and the only logical conclusion, would be to choose IBT. This is the only choice which would protect the interests of all pilots working for Republic Airways Holdings. Not to be cliché, but “All-For-One and One-For-All.”
One could write in ALPA, but then the Major vs. Regional mentality applies by which there is always a conflict of interest in bargaining (see above). . . .
Or, and the only logical conclusion, would be to choose IBT. This is the only choice which would protect the interests of all pilots working for Republic Airways Holdings. Not to be cliché, but “All-For-One and One-For-All.”
Doesn't the IBT represent both 'major' and 'regional' airlines too (they don't rep any of the legacy carriers, but do rep Airbus, Boeing, etc. operations)?
How can one argue that a vote for ALPA is any different than a vote for the IBT based purely on conflict of interest between pilots flying different sized aircraft - logic says otherwise.
Vote in ALPA, you're represented by a large national association dedicated to promoting the interests of pilots. Vote in IBT you're represented by a MUCH larger national association, but one that isn't dedicated to promoting the interests of pilots, but of trade unionism in general. That's the difference b/t the ALPA and the IBT.
What would Ted Nugent do, and would it affect my tax return?
06-07-2011 | 07:16 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
My fave Faultpush quote:
"The last time I checked, the SLI arbitration hasn't been decided yet. Until the arbitration is decided, you'll see both sides presenting their cases. To each side, the other's argument is ridiculous (e.g. I've heard that RAH asked for a 7 to 1 ratio). In the end, the arbitrator decides what is "fair and equitable", and we live with that. You won't find FAPA pulling a USAir over the outcome of the arbitration, and I hope that IBT wouldn't either. "
Yeah,mmm hmmm.....This must be "living with it",yeah buddy...
"The last time I checked, the SLI arbitration hasn't been decided yet. Until the arbitration is decided, you'll see both sides presenting their cases. To each side, the other's argument is ridiculous (e.g. I've heard that RAH asked for a 7 to 1 ratio). In the end, the arbitrator decides what is "fair and equitable", and we live with that. You won't find FAPA pulling a USAir over the outcome of the arbitration, and I hope that IBT wouldn't either. "
Yeah,mmm hmmm.....This must be "living with it",yeah buddy...
Don't you just LOVE how RPC, lawsuits, etc. are all just "sour grapes" moves as one guy mentioned to me? The agreed to final and binding but must have had their fingers and legs crossed..... nice post FWR!
06-07-2011 | 08:41 PM
#47
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 688
Likes: 0
The new bylaws of Local 357 require a 7 member Executive Board. A new election has been put off until this representation election election is over so that Frontier and Midwest pilots can run for positions. Frontier could have all 7 members if they ran and won. Our current ExCo Chair has stated that if he ran again, he would like to have atleast 1 Frontier pilot and 1 Midwest pilot on his slate to promote unity. Perhaps the current FAPA leadership could run together and win. Then you could have all 7 members. However since the positions would be volunteer positions, would your BoD be willing to run the union if they were not getting $ 42K as President, $35,700 as VP and Sec/Tres and $33,600 and $18,200 for base positions ($221,200 per year)?
You could have as many base reps as you could find. However keep in mind that under 357 bylaws these positions are not paid. I'm not sure how many Frontier pilots would be willing to do the job if they were not getting $33,600 a year for it.
You could have as many base reps as you could find. However keep in mind that under 357 bylaws these positions are not paid. I'm not sure how many Frontier pilots would be willing to do the job if they were not getting $33,600 a year for it.
Article II. Section 4.b
"
In newly chartered Local Unions which have been in existence for
less than twenty-four (24) months, a candidate for Local Union office
must be a member and in continuous good standing in such Local Union
and must have worked under its jurisdiction as a member for at least
half of the period of time since the Local Union was separately
chartered by the International Union.less than twenty-four (24) months, a candidate for Local Union office
must be a member and in continuous good standing in such Local Union
and must have worked under its jurisdiction as a member for at least
half of the period of time since the Local Union was separately
"
How long has 357 been in existence?
Is FAPA a "Local Union" as defined by the IBT?
I reallize that the FAPA officer salaries are shocking to some of you, but you fail to reallize that they are ratified by the membership on an annual basis. No one here is surprised. Are you surprised that your Local spent $21,000 on leather Scott flight bags 12 months ago? What about the $40,000 your membership spent on pension benefits for your staff? You do reallize that all other IBT members have a Defined Benefit Pension Plan, don't you?
Your local spent $200,000 in Flight pay loss in 2010. How are you going to fund 2011 and beyond considering the fact that you only have $300,000 in the bank? Will there be another special assessment on the horizon?
You go on to say...
"Our current ExCo Chair has stated that if he ran again, he would like to have atleast 1 Frontier pilot and 1 Midwest pilot on his slate to promote unity."
This is exactly what Pat Gannon has said. Yet he tries to spread lies about a "TEC".
Pat Gannon has offered one Frontier pilot a position on "his slate". That is the extent of the "TEC".
Pat Gannon also agreed to come out and "lead" his potential new pilot group. The Frontier Pilots wanted to hear why the Local 357 would be the best choice in this representation election. This was yet another invitation extended to the IBT by FAPA, and yet another invitation declined by the IBT.
Pat Gannon wanted to bring IBT AD and former 747 reps to talk about how bad the 747 was. We don't care why the past IBT reps have failed, we want to know why the future IBT reps will succeed. Pat Gannon decided to stay home instead. Apparently, the IBT doesn't have a future plan for our success.
This is the only thing the 357 is selling.
" we are better than the 747".
That is it. That is all you have.
You can't negotiate.
You can't win greivances.
You can't win arbitrations.
You can't win SBA's.
You can't build schedules.
You can't provide benefits that other unions provide.
You can't provide benefits that your own union provides to other IBT members.
You have your almighty scope, scope that requires everything to be flown by you....the lowest paid 100 (99) seat aircraft pilots on the planet. Somehow you have convinced yourselves that this is a good thing.
Pat could have really done some good by coming out and talking with the pilot group in Denver. Apparently, when the going gets tough, the tough IBT leaders go hide.
I understand why you guys haven't TA'd one section of your CBA, the CBA that was amendable four years ago.
Pat not coming out to Denver was the biggest F U of this entire mess. I can only imagine the ramifications.
06-08-2011 | 04:02 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
06-08-2011 | 07:25 AM
#49
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Your own EXCO apparently doesn't understand the IBT National C&B's.
Article II. Section 4.b
"
"
How long has 357 been in existence?
Is FAPA a "Local Union" as defined by the IBT?
I reallize that the FAPA officer salaries are shocking to some of you, but you fail to reallize that they are ratified by the membership on an annual basis. No one here is surprised. Are you surprised that your Local spent $21,000 on leather Scott flight bags 12 months ago? What about the $40,000 your membership spent on pension benefits for your staff? You do reallize that all other IBT members have a Defined Benefit Pension Plan, don't you?
Your local spent $200,000 in Flight pay loss in 2010. How are you going to fund 2011 and beyond considering the fact that you only have $300,000 in the bank? Will there be another special assessment on the horizon?
You go on to say...
"Our current ExCo Chair has stated that if he ran again, he would like to have atleast 1 Frontier pilot and 1 Midwest pilot on his slate to promote unity."
This is exactly what Pat Gannon has said. Yet he tries to spread lies about a "TEC".
Pat Gannon has offered one Frontier pilot a position on "his slate". That is the extent of the "TEC".
Pat Gannon also agreed to come out and "lead" his potential new pilot group. The Frontier Pilots wanted to hear why the Local 357 would be the best choice in this representation election. This was yet another invitation extended to the IBT by FAPA, and yet another invitation declined by the IBT.
Pat Gannon wanted to bring IBT AD and former 747 reps to talk about how bad the 747 was. We don't care why the past IBT reps have failed, we want to know why the future IBT reps will succeed. Pat Gannon decided to stay home instead. Apparently, the IBT doesn't have a future plan for our success.
This is the only thing the 357 is selling.
" we are better than the 747".
That is it. That is all you have.
You can't negotiate.
You can't win greivances.
You can't win arbitrations.
You can't win SBA's.
You can't build schedules.
You can't provide benefits that other unions provide.
You can't provide benefits that your own union provides to other IBT members.
You have your almighty scope, scope that requires everything to be flown by you....the lowest paid 100 (99) seat aircraft pilots on the planet. Somehow you have convinced yourselves that this is a good thing.
Pat could have really done some good by coming out and talking with the pilot group in Denver. Apparently, when the going gets tough, the tough IBT leaders go hide.
I understand why you guys haven't TA'd one section of your CBA, the CBA that was amendable four years ago.
Pat not coming out to Denver was the biggest F U of this entire mess. I can only imagine the ramifications.
Article II. Section 4.b
"
In newly chartered Local Unions which have been in existence for
less than twenty-four (24) months, a candidate for Local Union office
must be a member and in continuous good standing in such Local Union
and must have worked under its jurisdiction as a member for at least
half of the period of time since the Local Union was separately
chartered by the International Union.less than twenty-four (24) months, a candidate for Local Union office
must be a member and in continuous good standing in such Local Union
and must have worked under its jurisdiction as a member for at least
half of the period of time since the Local Union was separately
"
How long has 357 been in existence?
Is FAPA a "Local Union" as defined by the IBT?
I reallize that the FAPA officer salaries are shocking to some of you, but you fail to reallize that they are ratified by the membership on an annual basis. No one here is surprised. Are you surprised that your Local spent $21,000 on leather Scott flight bags 12 months ago? What about the $40,000 your membership spent on pension benefits for your staff? You do reallize that all other IBT members have a Defined Benefit Pension Plan, don't you?
Your local spent $200,000 in Flight pay loss in 2010. How are you going to fund 2011 and beyond considering the fact that you only have $300,000 in the bank? Will there be another special assessment on the horizon?
You go on to say...
"Our current ExCo Chair has stated that if he ran again, he would like to have atleast 1 Frontier pilot and 1 Midwest pilot on his slate to promote unity."
This is exactly what Pat Gannon has said. Yet he tries to spread lies about a "TEC".
Pat Gannon has offered one Frontier pilot a position on "his slate". That is the extent of the "TEC".
Pat Gannon also agreed to come out and "lead" his potential new pilot group. The Frontier Pilots wanted to hear why the Local 357 would be the best choice in this representation election. This was yet another invitation extended to the IBT by FAPA, and yet another invitation declined by the IBT.
Pat Gannon wanted to bring IBT AD and former 747 reps to talk about how bad the 747 was. We don't care why the past IBT reps have failed, we want to know why the future IBT reps will succeed. Pat Gannon decided to stay home instead. Apparently, the IBT doesn't have a future plan for our success.
This is the only thing the 357 is selling.
" we are better than the 747".
That is it. That is all you have.
You can't negotiate.
You can't win greivances.
You can't win arbitrations.
You can't win SBA's.
You can't build schedules.
You can't provide benefits that other unions provide.
You can't provide benefits that your own union provides to other IBT members.
You have your almighty scope, scope that requires everything to be flown by you....the lowest paid 100 (99) seat aircraft pilots on the planet. Somehow you have convinced yourselves that this is a good thing.
Pat could have really done some good by coming out and talking with the pilot group in Denver. Apparently, when the going gets tough, the tough IBT leaders go hide.
I understand why you guys haven't TA'd one section of your CBA, the CBA that was amendable four years ago.
Pat not coming out to Denver was the biggest F U of this entire mess. I can only imagine the ramifications.
06-11-2011 | 04:32 AM
#50
Thread Starter
New Hire
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: 170/Left Seat
History DOES repeat itself, as does its shortsightedness:
How Frontier’s Pilots Stymied Southwest Airlines
Aug. 17, 2009/Deal Journal
Posted by Michael Corkery
The Frontier Airlines executives and unions officials returning home from last Thursday’s auction in which Frontier was sold to Republic Airways Holdings Inc. were hailed as heroes.
After landing in Denver, Frontier’s hub, their airplane taxied beneath a “water cannon salute” and was greeted at the gate by 200 cheering Frontier employees. “It was awesome,’’ recalls John Stemmler, president of Frontier’s pilots union.
The deal with Republic has people in Denver celebrating because it prevented Frontier from being sold to Southwest Airlines, which would have likely resulted in thousands of job cuts. Republic, which is a contract flier for other airlines, will likely keep more Frontier jobs because it doesn’t currently employ ticket handlers or do route planning.
The Frontier pilots were key to the outcome because they balked at a proposal by Southwest’s pilots union that would have put the Frontier pilots at the bottom of the seniority list of the combined companies. Southwest was unwilling to negotiate and handed the keys to Republic.
Deal Journal spoke with Stemmler about the auction and Frontier’s future. (Read a previous Deal Journal interview with Stemmler after Southwest first made its bid for Frontier) Here are excerpts from the latest interview.
Deal Journal: Were you surprised that Southwest, a much larger and better capitalized company, lost the auction to Republic?
Stemmler: Yes. Southwest has a $2 billion checkbook. They came in saying they intended to win. I was surprised they were unable to overcome more of the issues.”
DJ: Why was seniority such a big issue?
Stemmler: We have 640 active flying pilots. All of them would have been positioned at the bottom of the seniority list, or stapled to the bottom as we call it. Southwest is ten times larger than we are. There was no way Frontier pilots were going to move (up that list). We only had four hours to negotiate. It took Delta Northwest six-and-a-half months to negotiate the seniority issue (amid merger talks between those airlines).
DJ: Did you make any progress?
Stemmler: We started and ended negotiations with our pilots at the bottom. That didn’t seem like a good deal to us…. Southwest management didn’t want an acrimonious mix (of Southwest and Frontier pilots). At the end of the day, their management left it up to labor.
DJ: How will Frontier seniority be sorted out with Republic pilots?
Stemmler: We have confidence we can come up with a consensual list since we have time. Southwest said we will close only if you can come up with a list. Republic says we will close and we will operate Frontier as a fenced off entity until (Frontier and Republic pilots) reach a deal. And in case we can’t reach a deal, it will go to binding arbitration.
DJ: Given the tough times in the airline industry, are you concerned that Republic isn’t as well capitalized as Southwest?:
Stemmler: Sure, I would rather have Southwest’s balance sheet behind me but Republic presented the highest and best offer. We went in looking for the best deal for our pilot group and I think that’s what we got….For the last eight months, Frontier has been profitable while in bankruptcy. It’s not like we will be a drain on [Republic’s] revenue stream.
DJ: What are your hopes for Frontier under Republic’s ownership?
Stemmler: It’s very exciting for us because we’ve been in been shrinking for two years. This really is the chance to diversify and grow. We are a one hub airline that needs to change
How Frontier’s Pilots Stymied Southwest Airlines
Aug. 17, 2009/Deal Journal
Posted by Michael Corkery
The Frontier Airlines executives and unions officials returning home from last Thursday’s auction in which Frontier was sold to Republic Airways Holdings Inc. were hailed as heroes.
After landing in Denver, Frontier’s hub, their airplane taxied beneath a “water cannon salute” and was greeted at the gate by 200 cheering Frontier employees. “It was awesome,’’ recalls John Stemmler, president of Frontier’s pilots union.
The deal with Republic has people in Denver celebrating because it prevented Frontier from being sold to Southwest Airlines, which would have likely resulted in thousands of job cuts. Republic, which is a contract flier for other airlines, will likely keep more Frontier jobs because it doesn’t currently employ ticket handlers or do route planning.
The Frontier pilots were key to the outcome because they balked at a proposal by Southwest’s pilots union that would have put the Frontier pilots at the bottom of the seniority list of the combined companies. Southwest was unwilling to negotiate and handed the keys to Republic.
Deal Journal spoke with Stemmler about the auction and Frontier’s future. (Read a previous Deal Journal interview with Stemmler after Southwest first made its bid for Frontier) Here are excerpts from the latest interview.
Deal Journal: Were you surprised that Southwest, a much larger and better capitalized company, lost the auction to Republic?
Stemmler: Yes. Southwest has a $2 billion checkbook. They came in saying they intended to win. I was surprised they were unable to overcome more of the issues.”
DJ: Why was seniority such a big issue?
Stemmler: We have 640 active flying pilots. All of them would have been positioned at the bottom of the seniority list, or stapled to the bottom as we call it. Southwest is ten times larger than we are. There was no way Frontier pilots were going to move (up that list). We only had four hours to negotiate. It took Delta Northwest six-and-a-half months to negotiate the seniority issue (amid merger talks between those airlines).
DJ: Did you make any progress?
Stemmler: We started and ended negotiations with our pilots at the bottom. That didn’t seem like a good deal to us…. Southwest management didn’t want an acrimonious mix (of Southwest and Frontier pilots). At the end of the day, their management left it up to labor.
DJ: How will Frontier seniority be sorted out with Republic pilots?
Stemmler: We have confidence we can come up with a consensual list since we have time. Southwest said we will close only if you can come up with a list. Republic says we will close and we will operate Frontier as a fenced off entity until (Frontier and Republic pilots) reach a deal. And in case we can’t reach a deal, it will go to binding arbitration.
DJ: Given the tough times in the airline industry, are you concerned that Republic isn’t as well capitalized as Southwest?:
Stemmler: Sure, I would rather have Southwest’s balance sheet behind me but Republic presented the highest and best offer. We went in looking for the best deal for our pilot group and I think that’s what we got….For the last eight months, Frontier has been profitable while in bankruptcy. It’s not like we will be a drain on [Republic’s] revenue stream.
DJ: What are your hopes for Frontier under Republic’s ownership?
Stemmler: It’s very exciting for us because we’ve been in been shrinking for two years. This really is the chance to diversify and grow. We are a one hub airline that needs to change
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