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07-04-2022, 07:16 AM
#302
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
It will send a stronger message to management if the membership votes it down.
07-04-2022, 07:29 AM
#303
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 62
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
It will send a stronger message to management if the membership votes it down.
And IF, by how much. 51:49 No? Good luck seeing anything else for years.
Keep pushing the info about ow bad it the Tumi TA is.
Last edited by Steve Crewdog; 07-04-2022 at 08:12 AM.
07-04-2022, 08:49 AM
#305
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Yes or No
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
It will send a stronger message to management if the membership votes it down.
And you absolve them of having to negotiate if we pull it down. Be clear on this, when the company’s negotiators left the table, they felt, and we’re most likely assured, that this TA would pass.
Placing yourself in the company’s shoes, you’ve negotiated in good faith and the MEC stepped in and halts the ratification process, in total violation of the protocol agreement, then the company can just walk away from the table and we look like total incompetent, and dishonest, fools. There would be no benefit to breaking protocol in bath faith.
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07-04-2022, 09:14 AM
#306
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,256
Originally Posted by Sunvox
I think there is a major gap in your thesis. New pilots make their choice of which airline to apply to based on several personal factors, but one of those factors common to all is pay. If DAL or AA have a contract, I am fairly certain UAL will have a contract as well. Particularly when you are talking about raises on the order of 15-20%. So, yes UAL-ALPA missed the boat on mediation, but no, I do not believe it will impact the ultimate outcome.
Our President has an aggressive growth plan, and I think that is why UAL got a TA when it did. I do not believe Kirby was smart enough to have realized the details of the TA would be considered so onerous by line pilots. It is far more likely he was relying on information from his negotiators as well as whatever he was hearing from the MC both of which probably were telling him how great this TA was and how it would place United at the top for the near future. Happily that bubble is now burst, but it won't change the fact that Kirby wants United to be the world's premier Global Airline, and his pilots still need a leading contract to do so. Don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting this to happen fast, but I think 18 months to 2 years on the outside and more likely I would bet a $100 bucks, we will see a new TA before next summer.
Our President has an aggressive growth plan, and I think that is why UAL got a TA when it did. I do not believe Kirby was smart enough to have realized the details of the TA would be considered so onerous by line pilots. It is far more likely he was relying on information from his negotiators as well as whatever he was hearing from the MC both of which probably were telling him how great this TA was and how it would place United at the top for the near future. Happily that bubble is now burst, but it won't change the fact that Kirby wants United to be the world's premier Global Airline, and his pilots still need a leading contract to do so. Don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting this to happen fast, but I think 18 months to 2 years on the outside and more likely I would bet a $100 bucks, we will see a new TA before next summer.
Given that UALPA didn’t file for mediation at all for more than four years, and given that they produced the turd that they did, it is likely that they don’t really “get” the RLA negotiating environment. Both the quality of the TA they produced and their failure to file for mediation could be called prima facie evidence of a MEC and NC that don’t “get it.”
To begin with, when a union timely files for NMB mediation, it sends a message to management. The message it sends is that, “Oh, this is a union that might know what they’re doing. It might be more difficult to dupe these guys.” It generates a certain amount of respect.
Had UALPA filed for mediation in a prompt manner, it also would have helped your pilot group strategically in terms of leverage. For example, let’s say UALPA had filed for mediation after eight or nine months of negotiations, which would have been reasonable. Since negotiations opened in March 2018, you would now be more than 3.5 years into mediation. Your leverage right now would be much stronger than it actually is because it would’ve been realistic, after 3.5 years in mediation, that a release could’ve occurred soon.
If that were the case, Scott Kirby and friends would have felt much more pressure now, not next year or however long it will take UALPA 2.0 to get up to speed. And even if UALPA 2.0 files for mediation the day the vote on the TA closes, they would have to wait years before having the same amount of leverage via the RLA as the United pilots could have had now had mediation been filed for 3.5 years ago.
Had mediation been filed years ago, Kirby would currently be looking down the barrel of the very real possibility of an impending release from mediation and the resulting surge of passengers booking away from United that would’ve resulted when a release occurred. Current NMB mediator John Livingood describes this “book away phenomena” as what happens “when passengers find out that their flights may be cancelled, or disrupted, because the NMB released the parties from mediation in accordance with RLA Section 5 (Section 155) and triggered the potential for a work stoppage. Airline passengers with today's technology and access to reservation systems have the potential, en masse, to immediately reschedule their flights to try to avoid possible disruptions to their travel plans, thereby causing a potentially substantial loss of revenue/business.”
But alas, Kirby is not looking down that barrel. And therefore he doesn’t feel anywhere near the same amount of pressure as he could’ve had your MEC and NC decided to avail itself of the leverage that is available via the RLA.
It’s disingenuous to argue that, with less pressure applied to him, Kirby benevolently granted unto the pilots of UAL the same deal he would have had he been under the gun - that this current TA is the same TA that would have been produced if Kirby had believed the “book away phenomena” was a realistic possibility in the not-distant future.
The outcome was almost certainly impacted by UALPA not “getting it.” The outcome, in the midst of the leverage of a historic pilot shortage and your training center issues was a milquetoast, nearly concessionary TA. It was the product of a MEC and NC who don’t “get” what it takes to negotiate an industry-leading contract in a RLA environment.
The results speak for themselves.
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
Delta filed for mediation, not ALPA. There was a clause in Delta PWA that automatically goes to mediation at a certain point, but Delta filed about 2 months before that date when it realized how much the pilots were expecting. This was pre-covid when the airline was making billions.
Delta’s PWA has a clause that stipulates mediation would be jointly filed if they didn’t reach an agreement by March 31, 2020. Their PWA was amendable December 31, 2019 with a 270-day early opener. The PWA states, “In the absence of an agreement by March 31, 2020, the parties agree to jointly petition the National Mediation Board for mediation services.”
To me, that is a smart provision to have in a collective bargaining agreement because it creates an automatic start to mediation. There are very few, if any, downsides to filing for mediation and there is a major upside to doing so. Similar contractual language would’ve helped to mitigate the effects of the inept and/or corrupted MEC and NC that it appears UALPA currently has in place.
07-04-2022, 09:47 AM
#308
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,256
Originally Posted by Mytime2025
MEC is meeting this week and will decide steps going forward and they have power to cancel the TA. Lets just hope they understand what this pilot group wants. Pay/retirement and work rules that enhance QOL. It's not that complicated. They need to stop the mindset of in order to get something we need to give up something. How about this mindset, te the company negotiators we either get pay that surpasses inflation and a company funded retirement or we declare an impass and we will see you on the picket line. That's the message the NC needs to send. ALPA start acting like a union and not a boys club.
Under the RLA, neither side has the power to declare an impasse. Only the NMB can declare an impasse. And the NMB will only declare an impasse if you are in mediation (United pilots currently aren’t) and, among other things, have spent a substantial amount of time (years) in mediation. The United pilot group is years away from any form of legal strike. You can, however, conduct informational picketing at any time like the Delta pilots did last week and SWAPA pilots did a couple of weeks ago.
07-04-2022, 09:58 AM
#309
Banned
Joined APC: May 2022
Posts: 411
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
That’s not how it works.
Under the RLA, neither side has the power to declare an impasse. Only the NMB can declare an impasse. And the NMB will only declare an impasse if you are in mediation (United pilots currently aren’t) and, among other things, have spent a substantial amount of time (years) in mediation. The United pilot group is years away from any form of legal strike. You can, however, conduct informational picketing at any time like the Delta pilots did last week and SWAPA pilots did a couple of weeks ago.
Under the RLA, neither side has the power to declare an impasse. Only the NMB can declare an impasse. And the NMB will only declare an impasse if you are in mediation (United pilots currently aren’t) and, among other things, have spent a substantial amount of time (years) in mediation. The United pilot group is years away from any form of legal strike. You can, however, conduct informational picketing at any time like the Delta pilots did last week and SWAPA pilots did a couple of weeks ago.
07-04-2022, 10:05 AM
#310
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by Mytime2025
So the choice is two fold. Get a deal done and have happy pilots or drag it out thru mediation/ impass/ NMD/ cooling off/ strike and have extremely ****ed off pilots. Your choice.
